Oh Gosh, Oh gosh that is hilarious... that was a real rich feeling of pleasure! LOL
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Speaking in Tongues- What is it?
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
Thanks tough guy.... that was a real belly laugh...I still wiping the tears from my eyes...almost had me going in my shorts.....
I can guarantee you that no one here is laughing. There are many of us that are feeling a lot of pity, and some feeling shame that one who calls himself a Baptist would post like a Charismatic. Hackettstown is not very big is it? It shouldn't be hard to find a statement of faith. Do you agree with the Baptist church there, their statement of faith? If not then why call yourself a Baptist. Quite a bit of hypocrisy I would say.
The only defense you have given either Dr. Walters or myself is "Quench not the Spirit," or to tell us that we are doing so, which is a personal attack. That sure is lame, isn't it?
Go through 1Cor.14. Virtually every verse is corrective. Paul is correcting the Corinthians on their use of tongues, and in effect telling them to avoid the use of them. The gift of prophesy was a much better gift to seek after. They are never told to seek after tongues, never!
Instead, Paul says:
1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Yes. Being saved doesn't make you infalliable.
Maybe, but they can't confess Jesus as Lord.
Judge them by their fruits with reference to the Gospel. Some are charlatans and snake-oil salesmen, it's true, but others help bring many souls to Jesus.
FYI....My minister doesnt have a problem with it & we discussed it at length, Constitution in hand. Why dont you call him & discuss the point. Im sure you will make a big impression with him. And personally I dont care what you think & I could care less what anyone else thinks either. I am secure in my faith, my family & my place in my community & the likes of you will never interfere with it one Iota. So go ahead and try. That in itself is laughable.
For the record, this was my earlier commentary,
The gift of Tongues is a spiritual gift; "I would that ye all speak with tongues", says Paul. He says that he himself speaks in tongues, and thank God for it, but he keeps it in order & in its right place.
The gift of Tongues is a spiritual gift; "I would that ye all speak with tongues", says Paul. He says that he himself speaks in tongues, and thank God for it, but he keeps it in order & in its right place.
Dr. Walter
New Member
I have studied this question for the past 35 years and studied it intensely because I was once involved in a Pentecostal study group at the outset of my ministry. I have much of my family involved. I have friends involved. I have attended several churches where it occurred and saw it first hand.
I have found in every single case one of three characteristics that demonstrate it is not of the Holy Spirit.
1. Under the leadership of a proven false prophet
2. Confirmation of the "accursed" gospel of justification by works
3. Open disobedience to the clear and explicit teachings of scriptures
I have known individuals who were into it all and then were saved never to do it again. I have known people who are saved but in it and yet unable to speak in tongues or experience the other sign gifts.
I have yet to find an authentic case of Biblical tongue speaking. The bible does not teach in Acts 2 or I Corinthians 14 that those under the Spirit lose self-control or speak in non-human languages.
The term "unknown" is in italics but is explanatory of the fact that when the Biblical gift of tongues is used in the wrong place (the church) instead of in the mission field as Paul used it (I Cor. 14:18-19) then it will not be understood by those speaking or hearing it.
Personal anecdotes do not make good doctrine; it's the existential tail wagging the theological dog.
Dr. Walter
New Member
That is precisely why I first presented an exposition of I Corinthians 14 which as of yet, N
NE has attempted to answer.
That is precisely why I first presented an exposition of I Corinthians 14 which as of yet, N
I'd really love to debate with you but because I've been called a lier, my home church was exposed without my permission, Ive been called Charismatic & Not a Baptist....so you win & there is really nothing more to say
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Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
The place where you live is irrelevant. It doesn't have its own website anyway. Your profile does say this:
There is not a poster on this board that cannot see that information. To my knowledge Independent Baptist Churches repudiate the tongues movement; the Charismatic movement. Other information you gave for us in other posts. You stated clearly in another post that you lived in New York. I can look up the post for you. What you state in your public profile and in other posts is not private information. It is there for all to see.
You post as a Charismatic. You said you had discussions with your "minister." I don't know of a Baptist who calls the leader of his church a "minister," but rather a "pastor." You said you had discussions. You didn't say that the two of you agreed. It reminds me of a friend of mine who lives farther north than I do--almost in the land of the mid-night sun. He went to a Pentecostal church for a short period of time because there was no Baptist church in the area. He also had "discussions" with the pastor of the church. Neither could convince the other of their stand. The pastor amicably said: we are not going to agree. It is best if we agree to disagree on this issue. I don't want it to hinder you and your family from attending here. They left it at that point.
He was a fundamental Baptist. For expediency sake he attended for a while a Pentecostal church until something better could be found. But in no way did he agree with their statement of faith. He could not and still call himself a Baptist. That would be hypocrisy.
Discussions don't mean that you agreed, do they?
If you go to an independent Baptist Church, as your profile states, then why the strong stand on the Charismatic movement?
More importantly, why the reluctance to answer and discuss Biblical issues. You cannot answer direct questions put forth to you by Dr. Walters concerning 1Cor.14. You are reluctant to discuss the Scriptures relevant to the spiritual gifts of the first century. And that is a shame. To you it is a closed door.
I dont know what your problem is but I sincerely hope it isnt catching.
1. I have lived in NY & have worked there for 30 years. I now live in New Jersey....a suburb of NY.
2. I am a member of a Baptist Church.
3. Im not a Charismatic nor have ever gone to any of these churches.
4. Why are you vilifying a fellow Christian? Pathetic & Shameful behavior on your part.
5. I point blank will not speak to you & will not continue on in this vein....Do I make myself clear Cowboy?
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
It's the age old. You don't fit into my preconceived mold thus you aren't who you say you are. Strangely, at my church there are a few "charasmatic" types who like to raise their hand during praise and worship. However, the pastor does refrain them from speaking in tounges. When he feels someone is a little too charasmatic he has a private conversation with them to keep order in the church but doesn't disuade them from it in their personal lives. He allows hand raising but I think there is a clear unspoken rule about not running the aisle like some pentecostal churches I've seen. He even allows people to prostrate themselves before the stage if they are in prayer. And he annoints people with oil who want prayer for sickness. I wonder if DHK thinks thats too charasmatic?
glfredrick
New Member
A question for DHK...
Are Baptist churches autonomous congregations or do they follow a leader like a Bishop or Pope, who tells them what they must believe to be Baptist?
I'm presuming that you are making assumptions based on some form of knowledge, but that knowledge may be incomplete or uncomprehending. Unless or until you've correctly discerned the theology and stance of all the churches in the United States, making broad statements about one in particular (unless you've been there and are familiar) is akin to fundamentalism; knowing what you know because you know it, and no one is going to tell you otherwise.
And yes, for the record, I agree that most Independent Baptist churches are probably not very charismatic in scope. Neither are most other Baptist and baptistic churches. That is just not generally the way Baptist churches hold their theology. But, that being said, I've sure ran into a goodly number of very charismatic people within Baptist churches of every stripe. Apart from what the church teaches, some folks are just doing their own thing.
Now, that being said, at which point does the priesthood of all believers come into play?
Are Baptist churches autonomous congregations or do they follow a leader like a Bishop or Pope, who tells them what they must believe to be Baptist?
I'm presuming that you are making assumptions based on some form of knowledge, but that knowledge may be incomplete or uncomprehending. Unless or until you've correctly discerned the theology and stance of all the churches in the United States, making broad statements about one in particular (unless you've been there and are familiar) is akin to fundamentalism; knowing what you know because you know it, and no one is going to tell you otherwise.
And yes, for the record, I agree that most Independent Baptist churches are probably not very charismatic in scope. Neither are most other Baptist and baptistic churches. That is just not generally the way Baptist churches hold their theology. But, that being said, I've sure ran into a goodly number of very charismatic people within Baptist churches of every stripe. Apart from what the church teaches, some folks are just doing their own thing.
Now, that being said, at which point does the priesthood of all believers come into play?
The definition of a church is: "an assembly of baptized (immersed) believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together in order to carry out the command of the Great Commission and observe the two ordinances: baptism and the Lord's Supper."
--In that they are autonomous. They are congregational in government. However, every church has a statement of faith which defines it. When a person joins a church he agrees to the statement of faith of the church that he joins, else why would he be joining it? Do you agree with the statement of faith with the J.W.'s or the statement of faith of the IFB's, for example? Which group do you wish to identify with and why? We do not follow a leader per se, we follow the Bible, but the pastor gives oversight to the church, not as a dictator, but as a pastor who gives leadership to the church. We teach soul liberty within the confines of the statement of faith that we agreed to.
I am a missionary. I have no qualms about you looking at my profile. I have traveled through the States from the Atlantic to the Pacific. I have visited hundreds of IFB churches and preached in most of them--at least 30 out of 50 states. That gives me a pretty good idea of what most IFB churches believe as well as all the interaction I have had with those in former years in Bible College from states I haven't visited. I have never met anyone or been to any IFB church that supports the Charismatic movement, never.
The IFB movement is a movement that has taken a stand against certain issues, the Charismatic movement being one of them.
If you look up the statement of faiths of some IFB churches you will probably find that a stand against the Charismatic movement is written right into the Statement of Faith.
However, there are some liberal Baptist churches that are Charismatic. I don't deny that there are Charismatic Baptist churches, but they are not in the IFB camp.
It doesn't. Every believer is a priest before God. What has that got to do whether or not you believe the statement of faith of any particular church. If you can't agree with the statement of faith then leave and join a church that you do agree with.
from Hamlet, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much":wavey:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You know thats a euphemism for saying the person is actually in favor of the subject but hidding it to present themselves apart from it.
Fascinating isnt it....Interpretations & opinions like other parts of anatomy.....everyone has one. LOL.