Specific threats to Christians about losing eternal life!

[salzer mtn]

Christ told the woman of Samaria at the well that whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. As a child we didn't have inside plumbing and the water we drank and used for other purposes came from a water well. You had a long narrow tube bucket type thing on the end of a rope or chain that you lowered by a pully over your head down into the well. The long tube was about 4 foot in length and it was lowered down in the well and it went under the water and gurgled when it filled with water. You then pulled it back out and put this water tube in your bucket and pulled the release switch to fill your water bucket. You could draw water all day but the water well would spring back up to the same level. The Holy Spirit within us is the well that never run's dry. It fills our bucket up and run's it over at times but in my fourty years of being saved it has never run dry, praise God.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Jesus taught it: John 6:39, John 10:28.

Take it up with Him.

Only in your mind.

About John 6:39, Those whom God gives to Jesus are the ones who stay faithful to the end. This verse does not affirm OSAS. The same applies to John 10:28. And of course no one can snatch a person away from Jesus, but that person can turn away of his own accord.

That is the position of the first English Baptists, the General Baptists. It is scriptural and in accord with the nature of God.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I never said that God takes anything away did I?

It's not that God takes away free will, it's that He changes our will. Our spirit is reborn. It is born from above and as such is perfect and sinless and cannot sin.

It is not "taking away" free will, it is cutting away the dead sinful spirit, a spiritual circumcision.

A born again saint does not have the same "will" as he did as an unbeliever who is spiritually dead. He has the same will as God.

So you are a Holiness Baptist now, huh?

No one this side of heaven has the same will as God.

Changed wills are still free, and freedom means the right and ability to choose. The Bible affirms this.

 

[The Biblicist]

So you are a Holiness Baptist now, huh?

No one this side of heaven has the same will as God.

Changed wills are still free, and freedom means the right and ability to choose. The Bible affirms this.

It is the human will that is saved. That is precisely why when Paul describes salvation in Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" he goes on to claim it is the will that God saves "For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL (Gr. Thelema) and TO DO of His Good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13.

There are two Greek words translated "will" in the New Testament. One has to do with the will under the control of the intellect (Bolema) and the other has to do with the will under the control of the heart (Thelema).

There are no other Greek terms for "will" because the will does not exist independent from your heart and mind. However, that is precisely how you are treating the will as though it were an independent little god inside man that is free to exercise contrary choice to the human nature of man. That is impossible in any rational being. You will NEVER choose anything either contrary to your mind or heart - never! It is impossible. You choose either what you mentally or emotionally determine and NEVER anything other than that. It is impossible for the human will to exercise itself independent of mind and heart - impossible. Hence, the will is free only within the boundaries of human nature just as the Divine will is free only within the boudaries of the Divine nature. This is not a denial of free choice, it is only a denial of inifinite free choice. It is not a denial of contrary choice, it is merely a denial of infinite contrary choice.

Prior to regeneration the nature of man, both mind and heart is under servitude, and in bondage to sin. The very word translated "carnal mind" in Romans 8:7 refers to the "mind set" or the "will in action" within those who live "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8) - or the lost. The "will in action" is at "enmity" or a state of war against God, the will in action is not submissive to the law of God and "neither indeed can be" and that is precisely why no lost man can "please God" because their will in action, or mind set is nothing more than the expression of their depraved nature. There is no such thing as a completely sovereign will that can independently operate outside of the moral nature of any rational being - not even the will of God is free to operate in contradiction to His own nature. This idea is purely the figment of theological imagination.

You may not like what I have said or agree with it, however, you will cannot prove it wrong! The best you can do is ridicule.

 

[evangelist-7]

There are multitudes of warning passages
that do NOT specifically mention losing eternal life.
Here is one of my favorites:

Matt 7:
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them,
I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house;
and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them,
will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house;
and it fell. And great was its fall.”

I ask you … Do you think this refers to losing rewards … or to losing eternal life?
.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It is the human will that is saved. That is precisely why when Paul describes salvation in Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" he goes on to claim it is the will that God saves "For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL (Gr. Thelema) and TO DO of His Good pleasure" - Philip. 2:13.

There are two Greek words translated "will" in the New Testament. One has to do with the will under the control of the intellect (Bolema) and the other has to do with the will under the control of the heart (Thelema).

There are no other Greek terms for "will" because the will does not exist independent from your heart and mind. However, that is precisely how you are treating the will as though it were an independent little god inside man that is free to exercise contrary choice to the human nature of man. That is impossible in any rational being. You will NEVER choose anything either contrary to your mind or heart - never! It is impossible. You choose either what you mentally or emotionally determine and NEVER anything other than that. It is impossible for the human will to exercise itself independent of mind and heart - impossible. Hence, the will is free only within the boundaries of human nature just as the Divine will is free only within the boudaries of the Divine nature. This is not a denial of free choice, it is only a denial of inifinite free choice. It is not a denial of contrary choice, it is merely a denial of infinite contrary choice.

Prior to regeneration the nature of man, both mind and heart is under servitude, and in bondage to sin. The very word translated "carnal mind" in Romans 8:7 refers to the "mind set" or the "will in action" within those who live "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8) - or the lost. The "will in action" is at "enmity" or a state of war against God, the will in action is not submissive to the law of God and "neither indeed can be" and that is precisely why no lost man can "please God" because their will in action, or mind set is nothing more than the expression of their depraved nature. There is no such thing as a completely sovereign will that can independently operate outside of the moral nature of any rational being - not even the will of God is free to operate in contradiction to His own nature. This idea is purely the figment of theological imagination.

You may not like what I have said or agree with it, however, you will cannot prove it wrong! The best you can do is ridicule.

The scripture in numerous places proves you wrong. Your view is a product of Calvinism obtained from English Separatist Independency, otherwise known as Puritanism.

Ridicule? You are the person who started that. Who used the word "heretic"? HUH? That's what you do. Instead of debating only the issue, you belittle and demean your opponents as a tool to bolster your position.

 

[BobRyan]

There are two Greek words translated "will" in the New Testament. One has to do with the will under the control of the intellect (Bolema) and the other has to do with the will under the control of the heart (Thelema).

There are no other Greek terms for "will" because the will does not exist independent from your heart and mind. However, that is precisely how you are treating the will as though it were an independent little god inside man that is free to exercise contrary choice to the human nature of man. That is impossible in any rational being. You will NEVER choose anything either contrary to your mind or heart - never! It is impossible. .

You are making up a straw man. Even by Calvinist standards the "drawing of God" in John 6 enables ALL that depravity disables when it comes to "choice" - to the "will" choosing God. Here your entire argument falls apart for Christ said in John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL" thus the supernatural drawing of God is upon ALL not the arbitrarily selected few of Calvinism.

And this is a huge problem for the Calvinist.

In Rev 3 Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock IF anyone HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come IN" --

He does not say "I knock down the door and come in - arbitrarily with one but not with others". Nor does he say "I stand at the door and knock - then I come inside the house and open the door for myself so that I may come in".

In all cases the one in Rev 3 that opens the door is the sinner - alone - on the inside - separated from Christ.

A huge problem for the Calvinist.

in Romans 10 Paul again points to the failure of Calvinism because Paul says
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Calvinism does not survive the test of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

A born again saint does not have the same "will" as he did as an unbeliever who is spiritually dead. He has the same will as God.

Part of their nature - the new creation - is in harmony with God.

The question is - how did such a person become the NEW Creation?

2Cor 5 "IF anyone IS IN Christ - He is a New Creation" FIRST we must be "In Christ".

How did that happen?

Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in"

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Calvinism does not survive the test of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

The scripture in numerous places proves you wrong. Your view is a product of Calvinism obtained from English Separatist Independency, otherwise known as Puritanism.

Ridicule? You are the person who started that. Who used the word "heretic"? HUH? That's what you do. Instead of debating only the issue, you belittle and demean your opponents as a tool to bolster your position.

I give you scriptural facts that cannot be disproven and you give more blather. I could just as easily claim your doctrine is a product of Jacob Arminius, however, how does help address scrptural facts?

 

[The Biblicist]

You are making up a straw man. Even by Calvinist standards the "drawing of God" in John 6 enables ALL that depravity disables when it comes to "choice" - to the "will" choosing God.

Bob, you just shot your own foot and don't realize it. Your proof cited above by Calvinist does not support your position but supports mine. Think about what you just concluded? You concluded that Calvinists believe in an effectual drawing. What is that, if not a complete denial of "will" free of human depravity! Duh!!!

Here your entire argument falls apart for Christ said in John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL" thus the supernatural drawing of God is upon ALL not the arbitrarily selected few of Calvinism.

And this is a huge problem for the Calvinist.

First, you employ the false hermeutical tactic of pitting one scritpure (Jn. 12) against another scripture (Jn. 6). So your inference is God is the author of confusion and Bob must be sought for true clarification.

Second, you ignore the context of John 12 where this statement is found. It is found in a context where GENTLES are seeking to come to Christ and GENTILES were unclean and anything to do with them were regarded to be unclean by the religious Jew. Furthermore, the term "all" translates the a Greek term found in the anarthous construction and means "all" classes and kinds, thus a fitting response to Jewish condemnation of Gentiles. The word "men" cannot be found in the Greek text.

However, you don't want to be bothered by all these contextual fact do you???? No, you will simply brush them off and continue right down your path of error with full steam ahead.

In Rev 3 Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock IF anyone HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come IN" --

He does not say "I knock down the door and come in - arbitrarily with one but not with others". Nor does he say "I stand at the door and knock - then I come inside the house and open the door for myself so that I may come in".

In all cases the one in Rev 3 that opens the door is the sinner - alone - on the inside - separated from Christ.

My oh my! Have you not learned the basic abc's of Bible interpretation. One of those is identify who is being spoken to! He is writing to church members not the lost world. He is talking about restoring broken fellowship between Himself and that CHURCH as its practices had separated them from fellowship with Christ. They already have the indwelling Spirit of God "let him hear what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES".

in Romans 10 Paul again points to the failure of Calvinism because Paul says
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

More proof you know nothing of what you speak about. Election is not merely of Persons but of the MEANS to bring those persons to ultimate salvation. Gospel conversion is the elected means as Paul clearly says in 1 thes. 1:4-5 and 2 Thes. 2:13-14.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I find it amazing....

After reading many of the contentious posts in this thread by those who are trying to PROVE that one who was BORN AGAIN can, in fact, be LOST AGAIN, I find it utterly amazing that anybody thinks that the mere will of mortal, (still and always) fallible men could overcome or nullify the great doctrine of Justification and Propitiation (Salvation IS of the Lord) and make of none effect the Precious Blood of Christ. If that were true then it would be expedient for those saved to hope and pray for a rapid departure from this life AFTER being saved because the ever-present carnal nature will cause you to fall and sin probably sooner rather than later and make you "lose it". Such an idea is the total misunderstanding of what the "New Birth" really is. How tragic.....to finally gain liberty in Christ and then to have it stolen from you by the wicked one so rapidly. It is also tragic that many of those who are taught they can lose it will wake up in the presence of the Lord one day and realize that their service for the Lord was rendered of little or no effect by their own doubts about the eternal state of their redemption. Plus....any "works" they may have accomplished whilest trying to "keep themselves saved" will be burned up as wood, hay and stubble.
On another note...OSAS is NOT a license to sin (as some would assume and others would accuse...)or live any old way you please because "it'll all be alright in the end". Anybody who believes such a thing or lives that way was probably never genuinely saved to begin with. One must remember that when Christ died on the cross ALL our sins (past, present and future) were FUTURE from the cross forward. When we trust Christ He removes them ALL and casts them away as far as the "east is from the west". (Psalm 103:12) By His blood he cleanses us of even those sins we have yet to commit in our lifetime. He doesn't REDEEM our "old man"....He imparts to us an entirely new inner man that cannot sin.
O ' what a Saviour!!!!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Zenas]

By His blood he cleanses us of even those sins we have yet to commit in our lifetime. He doesn't REDEEM our "old man"....He imparts to us an entirely new inner man that cannot sin.
O ' what a Saviour!!!!

Bro.Greg:saint:

Surely you jest! You're not seriously suggesting that we cannot sin, are you?

Or are you of the Charles Stanley school that says no matter what sin we commit it is already forgiven and therefore not really a sin that counts against us?

 

[The Biblicist]

After reading many of the contentious posts in this thread by those who are trying to PROVE that one who was BORN AGAIN can, in fact, be LOST AGAIN, I find it utterly amazing that anybody thinks that the mere will of mortal, (still and always) fallible men could overcome or nullify the great doctrine of Justification and Propitiation (Salvation IS of the Lord) and make of none effect the Precious Blood of Christ. If that were true then it would be expedient for those saved to hope and pray for a rapid departure from this life AFTER being saved because the ever-present carnal nature will cause you to fall and sin probably sooner rather than later and make you "lose it". Such an idea is the total misunderstanding of what the "New Birth" really is. How tragic.....to finally gain liberty in Christ and then to have it stolen from you by the wicked one so rapidly. It is also tragic that many of those who are taught they can lose it will wake up in the presence of the Lord one day and realize that their service for the Lord was rendered of little or no effect by their own doubts about the eternal state of their redemption. Plus....any "works" they may have accomplished whilest trying to "keep themselves saved" will be burned up as wood, hay and stubble.
On another note...OSAS is NOT a license to sin (as some would assume and others would accuse...)or live any old way you please because "it'll all be alright in the end". Anybody who believes such a thing or lives that way was probably never genuinely saved to begin with. One must remember that when Christ died on the cross ALL our sins (past, present and future) were FUTURE from the cross forward. When we trust Christ He removes them ALL and casts them away as far as the "east is from the west". (Psalm 103:12) By His blood he cleanses us of even those sins we have yet to commit in our lifetime. He doesn't REDEEM our "old man"....He imparts to us an entirely new inner man that cannot sin.
O ' what a Saviour!!!!

Bro.Greg:saint:

We all agree that no external force makes the will of man choose. People have died rather than forced to choose something contrary to their convictions or feelings.

However, their concept of "FREE" will is a will that is also FREE from any internal forces within the human nature. They believe the human will sits upon a throne as a soverign "god" within the human nature and abritrarily has ability to choose that which is contrary to both the inclinations of human rationale joined with feelings.

It is certainly true that the human will can choose contrary to the inclinations of either/or human rationale and feelings but not contrary to both. Here is their fundemental problem. The will is not free from internal forces within human nature. Indeed, the human will is nothng more or less than the absolute servant for expression of man's intellect and feelings. It may be expressed by one over the other but it cannot express anything contrary to both, because it has no existence, much less freedom from both.

The human will is not only the absolute slave of human rationale and emotions but it is wholly enslaved to a totally depraved human rationale and emotions. Their problem is that the Bible teaches that the unregnerated man's rationale and emotions are in complete servitude to sin, dominated by sin, enslaved by sin in so much they are spiritually "dead in tresspasses and sin." In so much that the whole inner mind set (emotional/volitional) is at war with God and is not subject to the will of God and neither indeed can be and that is precisely why the unregenerated man cannot "please God" (Rom. 8:7-8) and one must come to God by "faith" to please God (Heb. 11:6).

Therefore, they do not merely believe in a "free" will but a "sovereign" will who has not only final decision over man's depraved nature but over the new nature in addition to the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit.

It would seem to me, that anyone thinking like this should be able to easily see that what really needs to be saved from sin is the human will since it is ultimately that which would damn the whole human being.

 

[evangelist-7]

Originally Posted by Gregory Perry Sr.
By His blood he cleanses us of even those sins we have yet to commit in our lifetime.
He doesn't REDEEM our "old man"....He imparts to us an entirely new inner man that cannot sin.
O ' what a Saviour!!!!

Surely you jest! You're not seriously suggesting that we cannot sin, are you?

If there were not many dozens of warning verses about the consequences of continuing in sin,
I might just accept the other few verses and agree with him.

But, this truth was written to Christians who can read and understand ...
1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Note: Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot, not understanding spiritual truth at all.
Hence, all of the many religions, cults, sects, etc.
.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Not "suggesting" anything....

Surely you jest! You're not seriously suggesting that we cannot sin, are you?

Or are you of the Charles Stanley school that says no matter what sin we commit it is already forgiven and therefore not really a sin that counts against us?

What I am SAYING is that the New Man...the New "Creature" or nature that is imparted to us at the new birth is sin-free and incapable of it (sin). It is the old carnal fleshy nature that still resides in us that sins. We have TWO natures present......AFTER we are saved whereas there was only ONE prior to salvation. That is also why I said that many here have little or no real understanding of the New Birth. I am NOT talking about any "supposed" state of sinless perfection or "entire sanctification" in THIS life whilest in THIS body of flesh.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[The Biblicist]

What I am SAYING is that the New Man...the New "Creature" or nature that is imparted to us at the new birth is sin-free and incapable of it (sin). It is the old carnal fleshy nature that still resides in us that sins. We have TWO natures present......AFTER we are saved whereas there was only ONE prior to salvation. That is also why I said that many here have little or no real understanding of the New Birth. I am NOT talking about any "supposed" state of sinless perfection or "entire sanctification" in THIS life whilest in THIS body of flesh.

Bro.Greg:saint:

Exactly! Salvation is designed for the whole human nature. Salvation is three-fold, thus we have three tenses ("saved" "save" "shall be saved") because man is composed of "spirit, soul and body."

The past tense salvation has been completed in the "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) and the spirit of man is the object of new birth, a new creature (creation, created in true holiness and righteousness) - glorified now and forever. This aspect of human nature is the inner temple of the Holy Spirit where he indwells in man. It cannot because it has been begotten of an incorruptible seed (the word of God - 1 Jn. 3:9).

The present tense is where all the fuss is about, and lost versus saved. This refers to the soul life. Here is the aspect that is up for grabs every day and can be lost. This aspect has to do with redeeming the time (Eph. 5:16). Here is the area where all the warnings are applied, the conditions must be met. Here is the aspect that has to do with our works. However, it is not the soul itself that is at risk, but its product - our life. As a man thinketh in his heart so is he. The daily salvation of our life has to do with present EXPERIENCE and future rewards. This aspect has to do with our "walk" whether it is in submission to the indwelling Spirit or God or the law of the flesh. The loss has to do with time, joy, assurance, peace, usefulness, rewards, growth, etc. The salvation of it has to do with living now the abundant life, future rewards and position - the future reward for life lived for the glory of God here and now. This aspect determines the nature of the "glory" of the body. Those whose lives glorified God will be reflected in the degree of glory manifested in their resurrected body.

The future tense has to do with the body, when the corruptible is destroyed and the body becomes incorruptible. When the law of sin is completely removed. it has to do with the ultimate "glory" of the body.

This aspect demonstrates and proves the doctrine of eternal security of the truly born again. The resurrection occurs PRIOR TO the judgment seat and the sinless perfection of the body occurs at the resurrection (1 Thes. 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:53-57). Thus the saints already are GLORIFIED before they come before Christ to be rewarded according to their works. Hence, judgement for the saints have nothing to do with determining their fitness to enter heaven but only their rewards in heaven.

 

[Yeshua1]

Originally Posted by Gregory Perry Sr.
By His blood he cleanses us of even those sins we have yet to commit in our lifetime.
He doesn't REDEEM our "old man"....He imparts to us an entirely new inner man that cannot sin.
O ' what a Saviour!!!!

If there were not many dozens of warning verses about the consequences of continuing in sin,
I might just accept the other few verses and agree with him.

But, this truth was written to Christians who can read and understand ...
1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Note: Historically, man has always been a spiritual idiot, not understanding spiritual truth at all.
Hence, all of the many religions, cults, sects, etc.
.

IF you have the anchor of your salvation your free will and your faith, then you will see able to lose it, but thankfully Bible shows the anchor as being the Cross, and the truine God Himself, ALL 3 , save and keep us saved!

 

[preacher4truth]

IF you have the anchor of your salvation your free will and your faith, then you will see able to lose it, but thankfully Bible shows the anchor as being the Cross, and the truine God Himself, ALL 3 , save and keep us saved!

Once again, Jesus will lose none -- John 6:39.

Everything else is mans conjecture borne of erroneous conclusions on Scripture.

7 has nothing to stand on but his own misinterpretations and attempts to enslave others to man made theological legalism.

Evangelists such as he are ones who come into churches thinking they told everyone the truth and that they are some maverick of truth, and feel themselves to be heroes.

Jesus' words supplant any such misnomer.

Jesus will lose none -- but 7 comes along some 2000 years later and says Jesus is wrong, and that He will lose some.

- Blessings

 

[Yeshua1]

Once again, Jesus will lose none -- John 6:39.

Everything else is mans conjecture borne of erroneous conclusions on Scripture.

7 has nothing to stand on but his own misinterpretations and attempts to enslave others to man made theological legalism.

Evangelists such as he are ones who come into churches thinking they told everyone the truth and that they are some maverick of truth, and feel themselves to be heroes.

Jesus' words supplant any such misnomer.

Jesus will lose none -- but 7 comes along some 2000 years later and says Jesus is wrong, and that He will lose some.

- Blessings

BOTh Him and BOB want to get saved by Grace, but live under Old Covenant law!

 

[preacher4truth]

BOTh Him and BOB want to get saved by Grace, but live under Old Covenant law!

Galatians says such are under a curse to do the whole Law. Paul stood in doubt of these types.