Spirit & Soul

[J. Jump]

Which part of God is His Spirit? The Holy Spirit, no?

I don't follow your logic at all. The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit. I don't think there are many folks that are going to be able to follow that.

Let me put what it is that I believe into simple terms. The spirit is the doer. Go back and look at all the verses that Max put "showing" the spirit is tied to emotions. Everyone of them showed the spirit not "feeling" but doing something. The spirit is the energizer or what makes us go.

The soul is a passive responder. It is the part of us that screams in terror when it sees that a Mack truck is going to run us over or it is the part of us that feels the elation of receiving a gift. But it can't do anything. It can't make your body jump out of the way of the truck.

The body obviously is the vessel that the spirit works to move.

I don't disagree that the spirit, which has been made alive has a new will or a new desire, because Paul tells us that he wants to do what is right, but finds himself doing that which isn't right. It's not that his spirit isn't willing, but there are still parts that are trapped in darkness that continue to fight against the spirit. That is our body and soul. They are still trapped in darkness and have been separated from the light of the spirit because there is no fellowship in light and darkness.

That is because He IS our conscience.

I don't see how you can say God is our conscience, because God is not indwelling every person.

We may escape the circular reasoning for a couple of posts, because it is bound to come back because we still don't have an agreement as to what the body, soul and spirit are and their functions. So it's hard to move off of home plate when we can't agree what home plate is

 

[skypair]

I don't follow your logic at all. The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit. I don't think there are many folks that are going to be able to follow that.

HUH?? The Holy Spirit is not a soul -- that's for sure. But He is a Spirit. That's why He is called "Holy SPIRIT." I don't think people are going to understand you, my friend.

Let me put what it is that I believe into simple terms. The spirit is the doer.

Do you have scripture for that? I don't understand this "angle."

Go back and look at all the verses that Max put "showing" the spirit is tied to emotions. Everyone of them showed the spirit not "feeling" but doing something. The spirit is the energizer or what makes us go.

I'll look. I couldn't scroll down far enough to check out what you are saying but I would say that we make decisions in our minds, emotions, and wills.

The soul is a passive responder.

Well, I agree that the soul is not what activates our flesh, for sure. It weighs between the flesh and the spirit. Like Paul said, "with my mind [spirit] I serve that law of God but with my flesh the law of sin," Rom 7:25. I don't see the soul anywhere there, do you?

The body obviously is the vessel that the spirit works to move.

AMEN.

It's not that his spirit isn't willing, but there are still parts that are trapped in darkness that continue to fight against the spirit. That is our body and soul.

Not the soul, JJ. There's a famous Puritan preacher who said that the conscience is the "judge." If we are God's, He is the Judge we find there. If we ae unsaved, self is the judge. The soul is only in darkness if it is unsaved.

But not total darkness. That is the mistake the Calvinists make. Eccl 3:11 says that God hath put eternity in our hearts so that we will search for Him (my paraphrase).

I don't see how you can say God is our conscience, because God is not indwelling every person.

Did you sense fairness even before you knew God? How about organization? Conscinece is not something that has an easy explanation because it comes from God.

We may escape the circular reasoning for a couple of posts, because it is bound to come back because we still don't have an agreement as to what the body, soul and spirit are and their functions.QUOTE] Ahh. But there is a "Light" at the end of THIS tunnel, right?

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

HUH?? The Holy Spirit is not a soul -- that's for sure. But He is a Spirit. That's why He is called "Holy SPIRIT." I don't think people are going to understand you, my friend.

Skypair you just said the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit, now you say the Spirit is not a soul, but a Spirit. Brother you are harder to follow than all get out.

Do you have scripture for that? I don't understand this "angle."

Yeah just go back and look at all Max's Scripture that the Spirit is tied to the emotions. You will see that the Spirit is "doing" in those verses.

Not the soul, JJ. There's a famous Puritan preacher who said that the conscience is the "judge." If we are God's, He is the Judge we find there. If we ae unsaved, self is the judge. The soul is only in darkness if it is unsaved.

And brother Scripture tells us that our souls are not saved yet. See we are getting back to the circular argument again. There is not a single verse of Scripture that says our souls are saved. If you have any please point them out to me, because I haven't seen them.

Christendom is big on "soul" winning, but they think we they evanglize people and people are saved that they have won a "soul" and that's just not what Scripture tells us. Matter of fact I think it is in I John that says if we turn a brother away from sin that we have saved his soul. That tells us two things. One that the person in question that is sinning is saved, because he is referred to as a brother and secondly that his soul is not saved.

And there are a ton of others. There just isn't any Scriptural support that the soul is saved once we believe in the substitionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on our behalf a sinner.

Did you sense fairness even before you knew God? How about organization?

Certainly.

 

[skypair]

JJ,

You're on hard guy to discuss with. Is the Holy Spirit the spirit of God or is the Holy Spirit God's soul?

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

You're on hard guy to discuss with.

I am? You should try reading some of your's or Max's posts

Is the Holy Spirit the spirit of God or is the Holy Spirit God's soul?

I think that is pretty self explanatory. He is the Holy Spirit.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Hey guys,

I told myself that I wasn't going to get involved again because it didn't seem to be going anywhere...but here goes...

JJump, you asked me to show you a place in the scriptures that showed that the soul is already justified in this life. Here is a couple of examples I would give...

1. Lot's soul is declared to be righteous in the present tense during his life even though it is evident from the scripture that he was less than perfect.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; 2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds);

2. Paul tells us in Romans 6 that we are DEAD to sin. The obvious implication is that a DEAD MAN CAN"T sin, so why do we continue to do so? If we are dead to sin, and a dead man can't sin, then this Obviously does not apply to the spirit or the flesh. The spirit and the flesh can still sin according to 2 Cor. 7:1. According to Paul, we have been made(past tense) free from sin. This cannot be our spirit or our flesh according to scripture. So what part of us is left that can be sinless...the soul...just like the scripture supports...

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


I don't know if this will help you understand my position or not, but it was woth another try.

Max.

 

[J. Jump]

JJump, you asked me to show you a place in the scriptures that showed that the soul is already justified in this life.

No I said show me a place where Scripture says that the soul is already saved. I don't think there is any, because that would conflict with the three passages that I have given that says the soul is yet to be saved.

If the soul is already saved then eternal salvation is not secure and one is in jeopardy of losing his/her salvation according to Scripture, which I don't think the Scripture teaches.

There are just too many contradictions that are placed on Scripture holding that the soul is what is saved and the spirit is what is in the process of being saved.

Paul tells us in Romans 6 that we are DEAD to sin.

Actually Paul tells us that we are to reckon ourselves or consider ourselves dead to sin. We are not automatically.

Here is the verse in question:

Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

According to Paul, we have been made(past tense) free from sin.

Being made free from something doesn't mean I won't or I can't do something. Being made free from sin simply means you have another option. Sin doesn't have to reign over you as it did in the past.

just like the scripture supports

Again Scripture just doesn't support this as far as I can tell.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Are you going to address the other example that I gave? (Lot)

You seem to not accept the position that Justification happens at the new birth...is this true? The reason I say this is because you just tried to make a distinction between my opening statement of the last post and your previous request to show that the soul is saved at the new birth. If we are not in agreement about when justification takes place, then we are wasting our time here.

As to the Romans 6 passage...

The reason that we are to "consider" as you say (a better definition of "reckon" is "to take into account") ourselves dead to sin, is because we are. We are not just pretending to be dead to sin... we actually are dead to sin and alive to God (our soul). Therefore we should yeild ourselves (our spirit) to this fact, and live accordingly.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
--present tense
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
--death already happened
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
--present tense
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--consider it because it is fact ("indeed")

 

[skypair]

I think that is pretty self explanatory. He is the Holy Spirit.

Oh. C'mon! Both God and the Holy Spirit are "spirits." Your soul and spirit are spirits as well. You argument gets us nowhere.

Do we have then a Duinity rather than a Trinity? Please try to respond cogently if you wish to continue the discussion.

No I said show me a place where Scripture says that the soul is already saved.

OK, where's the verses that say that the spirit is already saved? You're a "OSAS." There must be some passage you are counting on for salvation assurance. Which ones say that the spirit is saved already?

skypair

 

[skypair]

max,

Thank you for replying. I'm clearly not as good at finding scriptures as you are.

I only hope that it is scriptures that will have the last say.

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

Oh. C'mon! Both God and the Holy Spirit are "spirits."

Well I'm interested to see your argument that says the Holy Spirit is not Spirit. That's just comical to even think about. You make such a statement and then say this . . .

Please try to respond cogently if you wish to continue the discussion.

Are you serious? You want me to respond cogently and yet you say the Holy Spirit is not Spirit.

I only hope that it is scriptures that will have the last say.

Scriptures ultimately will have the last say there is no doubt about that. It's whether or not we believe what the Scriptures actually say while we are still kicking that is the kicker.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

I am not sure what you are talking about with regard to skypair saying that the Holy Spirit is not a Spirit. I can't find it anywhere. You have made something out of that which does not exist.

His point is we are created in the image of God...which includes the Tripartite aspect of God. Man is body/soul/spirit. God is Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

The parallel as far as the "image" is concerned is...

body = Son
spirit = Holy Spirit
soul = Father

Therefore, the soul and spirit are both spiritual entities.

This is Skypairs point.

Max

 

[J. Jump]

Are you going to address the other example that I gave? (Lot)

There is no need to, because you have yet to show how having a saved soul that is in need of nothing meshes with the teachings of at least three specific passages that says the soul is not saved. There is no reason to discuss anything further until you can explain how that is not a contradiction.

I have given you three passages of Scripture that says the soul is being saved and will be completed at the end of someone's faith. So how do you get that to mesh with your idea that the soul is completely saved at the moment one believes?

You seem to not accept the position that Justification happens at the new birth...is this true?

There is a justification that is spoken of in past tense and then there is a justification that is spoken of in the present tense. I believe our spirits are justified the moment that we believe and that our souls are in the process of being justified.

As to the Romans 6 passage...

The reason that we are to "consider" as you say (a better definition of "reckon" is "to take into account") ourselves dead to sin, is because we are. We are not just pretending to be dead to sin... we actually are dead to sin and alive to God (our soul). Therefore we should yeild ourselves (our spirit) to this fact, and live accordingly.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
--present tense
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
--death already happened
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
--present tense
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--consider it because it is fact ("indeed")

Max you can spin these Scriptures all you want to, but it doesn't prove your point. It just proves you can spin Scriptures to get them to say what you want them to say. Again I have given you three clear examples that have shown that our souls are not currently in a finished saved state. Until you can work your way out of those contradictions I would simply say that your understanding of these various other passages that you "use" to "prove" your point is simply flawed.

Now before you go accusing me again of not wanting to change or not wanting to admit that I'm wrong because of some website (which was really lame by the way and a new accusation on me - and I've heard a lot in the last year) I have already proven to you that I don't have a problem admitting that I'm wrong when a point is proven.

So if you want to show me the "error of my ways" as you see it then you need to clear up those three contradictions to start. And then you are going to have to prove that someone can't lose their salvation (which I believe you are a OSAS - so this one may be a little tough), because Scripture tells us that we can lose our souls. And following your definition that means we can lose our saved souls.

So again there are a lot of things for you to clear up before we can proceed to any further Scripture or look at any examples.

 

[J. Jump]

I am not sure what you are talking about with regard to skypair saying that the Holy Spirit is not a Spirit. I can't find it anywhere. You have made something out of that which does not exist.

His point is we are created in the image of God...which includes the Tripartite aspect of God. Man is body/soul/spirit. God is Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

The parallel as far as the "image" is concerned is...

body = Son
spirit = Holy Spirit
soul = Father

Therefore, the soul and spirit are both spiritual entities.

This is Skypairs point.

Actually I would agree with what you said, but if you will go back to Skypair's posts and re-read them you will see his parallel is actually:

body - Son
spirit - Father
soul - Holy Spirit

That I do not agree with.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

JJump,

I am not sure what you are talking about with regard to me making an accusation against you based on some website...that dosen't make any sense to me. If you are talking about my statement about your theological construct...you have made over 2000 posts on this board...with that many posts one can kind of see a pattern developing.

If I have offended you, I am sorry.

I do find it fascinating that you refuse to actually exegete the passages that I have used to challenge your beliefs. I have attempted to do so with one of your proof texts, and as I have time I will do so with the others. However, your response has been to just accuse me of mishandling the scripture, of which you have not given proof.

I could just as easily accuse you of the same thing just because I don't agree. However, I have not...I have only asked you to exegete the passages for all to see. You have avoided this for some reason.

Why wont you address the 1 John 3:9 passage?

Why won't you address the fact that the scripture says Lot's soul was "just" and "righteous?" And that while he was yet alive.

Just wondering?

Max

 

[J. Jump]

I am not sure what you are talking about with regard to me making an accusation against you based on some website...that dosen't make any sense to me.

Well while I hate to do "your" research for you let me refresh your memory.

Here is your quote:

Skypair,

I think your right about his refusal to change.

So what did Skypair say about my refusal to change?

I think one of the "issues" with jump is that he/she has this website with lots of good information based on his/her delineation of soul and spirit. Imagine having to reconstruct such a prodigious amount of information if it turns out not to be right?

If I have offended you, I am sorry.

You haven't offended me. I don't offend that easy. But what I do get tired of hearing is the you won't answer my questions, and I know I haven't answered your questions, but you still must answer my questions bit.

There is no need to answer your questions or address your Scriptures until you have proven that the three passages that I have given don't contradict your basic, fundamental belief that the soul is saved.

Because if you can't address those three Scriptures it doesn't make a hill of beans what you say in regard to the other Scriptures, because Scripture doesn't contradict Itself.

And while you did address the I Peter passage, you didn't prove your point and have yet to show how that doesn't contradict your belief that the soul is already saved.

This really isn't that complicated. There is no point in trying to discuss second base when we still have issues at home plate. You've got to get out of the box and head to first and touch the base before you can even think about second, etc.

So until you want to find time to discuss the passages that I have given you there is no way we can proceed.

Why wont you address the 1 John 3:9 passage?

I'm actually working on it right now, but don't have anything to add at this point.

Why won't you address the fact that the scripture says Lot's soul was "just" and "righteous?" And that while he was yet alive.

Again the passage that you quoted didn't say that Lot's soul was saved, it said it was in a right standing with God. It didn't give any indication that it was a finished state, so I fail to see how that proves your point. Lot was a saved man, which actually a lot of people don't see that Truth. So there we do not disagree. However, our disagreement still lies in you think it was his soul that was saved and I believe it was his spirit that was saved as far as eternally saved goes. So we are back to . . . guess where . . . home plate.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

This is becoming pointless.

For the record, my comment was about you having to reconstruct your whole theology. I know nothing about your website, nor do I care.

Your arrogance with regard to your theology is amazing. For one who is so confident in his message I would think you could teach it better. Your only defense is to ramble on and on about a couple of verses that you have yet to exegete for all here to see.

Could it be that you have misinterpreted these verses. At least consider it. Just because they don't seem to harmonize with what I have maintained does not mean they don't. Maybe it is more complex than you think.

When scripture is produced that questions the validity of your position, your response is to accuse the other party of mishandling the book. This is poor debating skills at best. I suggest you use a different tactic in the future.

Your position on LOT is a blatant disregard of the clear teaching of the passage. The scripture called him "just"... that is declared innocent/holy. It also said his SOUL was "righteous" (same word) that is declared innocent/holy. Once again, it said this about his SOUL. Your belief that it was his SPIRIT that was justified is complete conjecture. It is not supported by the scripture.

Again, this seems pointless.

Keep studying and start rightly dividing.

God bless you brother,

Max

 

[J. Jump]

Your arrogance with regard to your theology is amazing.

Right back at ya!

For one who is so confident in his message I would think you could teach it better. Your only defense is to ramble on and on about a couple of verses that you have yet to exegete for all here to see.

Again we have circular reasoning here, because I can say the same exact thing about you. There is no reason to exegete the Scriptures that I have given you, because we just need to let Scripture say what Scripture says.

All three of the passages contradict what you are teaching yet you are the one that says I am arrogant about my stance. Hmmmm . . .

Could it be that you have misinterpreted these verses.

It certainly could, but you have done absolutely nothing to show that that is the case. I have asked you for numerous threads to show me how these mesh with your idea that the soul is saved, but you continue to dodge the issue, yet I am the arrogant one.

At least consider it.

That is always on my mind. I am not out to win a debate. I am seeking God's Truth as He has given It. If I am in error I want to know it and know why. I have asked you again numerous times to show me how those three passages do not contradict what you are teaching.

Just because they don't seem to harmonize with what I have maintained does not mean they don't.

I know that. That's the same exact thing that I've been telling you about the Scriptures you have brought up to "prove" your points. Again we get this circular reasoning.

Maybe it is more complex than you think.

I don't doubt that at all. But are you saying that you are smart enough that you have it all figured out?

When scripture is produced that questions the validity of your position, your response is to accuse the other party of mishandling the book. This is poor debating skills at best. I suggest you use a different tactic in the future.

So I can't say you are mishandling Scripture, but it's okay for you to say it about me . . . I see how the game is being played . . . and it's pretty typical.

Your position on LOT is a blatant disregard of the clear teaching of the passage. The scripture called him "just"... that is declared innocent/holy. It also said his SOUL was "righteous" (same word) that is declared innocent/holy. Once again, it said this about his SOUL. Your belief that it was his SPIRIT that was justified is complete conjecture. It is not supported by the scripture.

See you don't even know what my "position" is or you wouldn't make such a statement. I never argued that the passage doesn't say what it says. I said that it doesn't "prove" your point.

Your point is the soul is what is saved eternally at the moment we believe. That is not proven in this passage of Scripture. There is nothing here that says his soul was secure for all eternity. It says his soul (at that time) was just. It didn't say it was going to remain just forever as you say.

Could it be that you have misinterpreted these verses? Could it be that it is a more complex issue than you think? Oh wait I'm not able to aske those questions of you right . . .

Again, this seems pointless.

Exactly. That's what I've been saying for a while now. If we are not willing to deal with matters at the beginning it is foolish to go beyond that point to try to have a successful conversation.

Again I would like for you to show me how three passages that say the soul is not saved really say the soul is saved. And then I would like to know how you can say you believe in eternal security when the Bible says the soul can be lost.

If you would like to work at home plate then by all means step into the batter's box.

 

[skypair]

Well I'm interested to see your argument that says the Holy Spirit is not Spirit. That's just comical to even think about. You make such a statement and then say this . . .

Huh?? By saying "C'mon," I was insisting that the Holy Spirit is a spirit! Now you've wasted a whole day on a total misunderstanding of my post???

skypair

 

[skypair]

JJ,

As to the Romans 6 passage...

The reason that we are to "consider" as you say (a better definition of "reckon" is "to take into account") ourselves dead to sin, is because we are. We are not just pretending to be dead to sin... we actually are dead to sin and alive to God (our soul)[JUSTIFICATION]. Therefore we should yeild ourselves (our spirit) to this fact, and live accordingly [SANCTIFICATION].

Good! This is precisely the paradigm that we have been trying to teach you!

I believe our spirits are justified the moment that we believe and that our souls are in the process of being justified.

No -- because once you are "justified," you don't have to be "re-justified" or "saved again. As you no doubt know, we dare not "crucify Christ again and put Him to an open shame!" (Heb 6:6).

skypair