Spiritual Death II

[JonC]

I also see the worth in what is sometimes called, " The Adamic Covenant", which is simply a recognition that God made a covenant with Adam whereby He commanded that Adam not do something, and the penalty if it was done... to eat of the Tree.
Similar to the "Mosaic Covenant", God set forth something ( or a set of somethings ) that was to be obeyed...and mankind failed to obey.

I'm a bit open here as well. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree or he would die. I think it reasonable to see it implied that if he did not eat of the tree he would not die. So in this way it is very much like the Mosaic Covenant and the Law (Paul even makes notes Adam's transgression being like post-Sinai transgressions of Israel. There just isn't enough for me to dogmatically view this as a covenant....or to be honest, to dogmatically dismiss it as less than a covenant.

 

[Dave G]

Gentlemen,

I see this subject as not worth arguing over.
There's no reason to accuse each other of being heretical, and no reason to be angry at one another.

I encourage you to hammer things out without getting into a fluff.
Let's all remember James 3:1-18.


It's not worth the damage.

 

[JonC]

I don't hold @Iconoclast 's heresies against him.

I'm sure he feels the same.

 

[JonShaff]

Are you offering this verse to try to support the idea that man is just flesh doesn't have a spirit or soul? If that is the position you defending it explain it in light of the fact that scripture says man has a body and soul or body and spirit.

I believe that a man is born flesh, soul, spirit. I state those Scriptures because it is evidently clear that Christ's physical death is what brought reconciliation, the forgiveness of sins through His blood.

There is a narrative out there that says Adam spiritually died therefore Christ had to spiritually died. That is false. Christ's blood and physical death and subsequent Resurrection accomplished our salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here I see that, unlike men, Christ was never separated from the love of His Father.
He always did those things that are pleasing in His sight.
He was never alone.
I know of no Scripture that declares that the Father turned His back on the Son...not one.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?" How much clearer do you want it?

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe that a man is born flesh, soul, spirit. I state those Scriptures because it is evidently clear that Christ's physical death is what brought reconciliation, the forgiveness of sins through His blood.

There is a narrative out there that says Adam spiritually died therefore Christ had to spiritually died. That is false. Christ's blood and physical death and subsequent Resurrection accomplished our salvation.

Hello Jon,
Let me ask you...You post this openly. Do you think Adam was created with a dead spirit? or a spirit that was alive?
If Adam had a spirit that was alive...can you think of any event in scripture that would have left Adam...with a dead spirit?
I think I can, I think all the reformers,and puritans can. Not by myth or fable, but by scripture.

 

[Dave G]

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?" How much clearer do you want it?

Clearer than that.

To me, the whole premise of Christ being forsaken by His Father is based on the implication of the verse above, or at least its isolation from other things that God has said:


" And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." ( John 8:29 )

" Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." ( John 10:17 ).

" Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." ( John 9:31 )

" Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me." ( John 11:41-42 )


Since Christ always did the will of His Father, and He always heard Jesus when He prayed, then His Father never left Him or forsook Him.
The verse you listed is, to me, Christ, as a man, expressing the same feelings on the cross, as David did in Psalms 22.


If you can demonstrate, from Scripture, that God the Father stopped loving God the Son, even while He was on the cross, then I'd say you have something. However, if you cannot build a case from God's word that He actually turned His back on His Son, then I have to disagree with you.

" I have been young, and [now] am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." ( Psalms 37:25 )


May God bless you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm a bit open here as well. God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree or he would die. I think it reasonable to see it implied that if he did not eat of the tree he would not die. So in this way it is very much like the Mosaic Covenant and the Law (Paul even makes notes Adam's transgression being like post-Sinai transgressions of Israel.

I am glad to see you inching towards Covenant Theology. However, there is one major difference between the covenant between God and Adam, and the Sinaitic Covenant. The latter had an elaborate system of sacrifices which allowed God to pass over the sins of the Israelites until the one perfect sacrifice of Christ.

However, there was no arrangement to deal with the sin of Adam. '.....for in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.' that's it; no arrangement to take away sin. In Genesis 2:25 we read, 'And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.' What does this mean and why does the Holy Spirit bother to tell us? Because we are to understand it theologically. Adam and Eve had no covering. There was no arrangement to cover sin. But that didn't matter because there was no sin. The couple came sinless from the hand of God who made them and pronounced what He had made 'very good.'

But as soon as they fell into sin, Adam and Eve were troubled by their nakedness. They knew that they had no covering, so they tried to make one themselves. But a man-made covering is worthless to hide one's sins (Isaiah 64:6) -- no more than a fig leaf. God saw right through it. The only covering for sin that satisfies the righteousness of God is the righteousness which He provides in Christ (c.f. Isaiah 61:10).

But the point is that Adam and Eve needed no covering before the fall simply because they were sinless. They were also spiritually alive because they were created by Christ (John 1:3) and so they walked with God..

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To me, the whole premise of Christ being forsaken by His Father is based on the implication of the verse above, or at least its isolation from other things that God has said:

There is no 'implication.' It's as clear as daylight. "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" Either the Father forsook the Son during the three hours of darkness or the Scriptures are false. It's there in black and white. What we have to do is not to deny one set of Scriptures in order to accept another set, but to accept them all and harmonize them.

 

[JonC]

Hello Jon,
Let me ask you...You post this openly. Do you think Adam was created with a dead spirit? or a spirit that was alive?
If Adam had a spirit that was alive...can you think of any event in scripture that would have left Adam...with a dead spirit?
I think I can, I think all the reformers,and puritans can. Not by myth or fable, but by scripture.

Your question is philosophical- it focuses on man. Let's stay focused on Scripture and God. Just rephrase:

What you should have asked was if I believed God created Adam "of the spirit". My answer is that God created Adam upright (innocent) but "of the flesh".

Spiritual life is only "in Christ" and it is not temporary. God is immutable.

Trust Scripture, @Iconoclast , and don't lean on your own understanding and your own narrative. Scripture really is sufficient and provides its own interpretation if you will only listen ti what is actually written rather tgan what you believe implied. God does not need you to fill in the blanks. He revealed Himself in Scripture and gave us His full revelation in the person of Christ.

 

[37818]

I believe that a man is born flesh, soul, spirit. I state those Scriptures because it is evidently clear that Christ's physical death is what brought reconciliation, the forgiveness of sins through His blood.

There is a narrative out there that says Adam spiritually died therefore Christ had to spiritually died. That is false. Christ's blood and physical death and subsequent Resurrection accomplished our salvation.

The payment for sin was completed before His physical death (John 19:28-30) and ressurrection (Romans 1:4).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Since Christ always did the will of His Father, and He always heard Jesus when He prayed, then His Father never left Him or forsook Him.

We are in full agreement that Christ always did the will of the Father, and He always heard the Lord Jesus when He prayed (but c.f. Mark 14:36 etc.). The will of the Father was that He go to the cross with the sins of all God's elect, and the curse attaching to them, laid upon Him and to make full satisfaction for their sins, and this the Son did willingly (John 10:18). He was made sin, became a curse for us, and God, whose eyes are too pure to look upon sin approvingly, turned away. 'Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice..........' The Father heard the Son at the ninth hour and the sun came out again. Propitiation had been made, with the exception of His fulfillment of Psalm 69:21b and His actual death which followed almost at once (John 19:28-30).

The verse you listed is, to me, Christ, as a man, expressing the same feelings on the cross, as David did in Psalms 22.

Certainly, but He didn't lie to do it.

If you can demonstrate, from Scripture, that God the Father stopped loving God the Son, even while He was on the cross, then I'd say you have something. However, if you cannot build a case from God's word that He actually turned His back on His Son, then I have to disagree with you.

The Father never at any time stopped loving the Son. That is what makes our redemption so amazing! God's wrath was not upon Christ -- I've told @JonC this at least a dozen times. His wrath was against sin and Christ became sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), taking the whole of the punishment that was due to us upon Himself, including separation from God (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

" I have been young, and [now] am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." ( Psalms 37:25 )

Nor was the righteous forsaken on the cross. He was personally innocent, but judicially guilty, our sins, and the curse attaching to them (Deuteronomy 27:26) having been laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 2:24). He became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).

May God bless you.

And you too, my friend.

 

[Aaron]

Ummmm....it is actually a logical fallacy.

That does not mean that your reasoning is flawed. It means that you are not seeing all of the opposing positions (either by choice or ignorance).

I am saying that Jesus becoming a curse for us is not a sign of God's favor. It is also not a sign of God's hatred. You simply committed a logical fallacy in your argument (there are more than two choices because of what you assume the Cross to be).

There's either blessing or curse.
Good or evil.
Right or wrong.
Favor or wrath.
Life or death.

Anything else is a lie of the carnal mind.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Spiritual life is only "in Christ" and it is not temporary. God is immutable.

Since Christ created Adam (John 1:3), why would you think that Adam was 'of the flesh'?
God is certainly immutable; but that immutability has to take into account God's anointing of Saul and His subsequent rejection of him.

 

[Dave G]

taking the whole of the punishment that was due to us upon Himself, including separation from God (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

He didn't take the punishment that was due us as sinners...to do that, He would have had to suffer in Hell, eternally.
He only took our sins upon Him.
For Christ to suffer the wrath of God, would have meant His being consigned to Hell as a sinner and being in torment forever.

We as believers are washed in the blood of His perfect sacrifice...He did not suffer in our place.
I believe this was also dealt with in the other thread.



Steve, I don't believe that you're thinking this all the way through.
With that, I will refrain from replying on this subject further.

 

[Aaron]

Gentlemen, if something is not declared as so, should you be arguing the "finer points" of that which is not declared?

What are the pains of death?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

He didn't take the punishment that was due...to do that, He would have had to suffer in Hell, eternally.

had He been only a man, He would certainly have had to suffer in hell eternally, but He is God as well as perfect Man, and the Father was satisfied with His propitiation, as proved by His resurrection.

I believe this was also dealt with in the other thread.

Oh, in umpteen threads! But if people ask the same questions, I can only give them the same answers.

 

[JonC]

There's either blessing or curse.
Good or evil.
Right or wrong.
Favor or wrath.
Life or death.

Anything else is a lie of the carnal mind.

I am not sure if you are playing dumb or simply missed the point.

You are assuming that it was more than "God's will to crush Him". You are either ignorant to the fact that opposing positions to yours do not add that the Cross was God punishing Christ or you are being dishonest. If God was punishing Jesus then it was either God's "favor or wrath".

But if Acts 3 is correct and it was God's will and the actions of "wicked men" then there is the choice God was not the perpetrator.

 

[Dave G]

What are the pains of death?

" Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:23-24 )

The power of death, which is the fear of death.

" Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." ( Hebrews 2:15 ).

Christ defeated death and the fear of it.

" So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law." ( 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 )

He defeated sin, and by it the power of death.

 

[JonC]

Since Christ created Adam (John 1:3), why would you think that Adam was 'of the flesh'?
God is certainly immutable; but that immutability has to take into account God's anointing of Saul and His subsequent rejection of him.

A few reasons.

In 1 Corinthians Paul speaks of the First and Last Adams. Only the Last Adam is deacribec as possessing this Life. Adam is described as uniquely human and our representative (by nature).

Scripture describes being spiritually alive ONLY in Christ and this type of life as everlasting because it is a Life that is God Himself. We see this in Ezekiel as well as this Life is God in us.

Do you belueve Adam was temporally indwelt by God's Spirit and conquered God? Was God weaker than Adam (perhaps tired from all that creating) so that Adam prevailed?

The reason no one dies spiritually is because this Life IS Christ. That is why spiritual life is everlasting life. Christ Is that Life.

This is another reason I find your tradition is offensive. It mocks Christ as the Life.