Spiritual Death

[JonC]

I chose to deal with your reply in two posts for clarity.

You give no reasonable belief or understanding of how spiritual death enters.

Neither does Scripture. Scripture presents two options - flesh and spirit. Scripture presents man (to include Adam) as created or made in the flesh and ultimately in need of a spiritual birth ("born again" or "born from above"). Scripture presents natural man as in a state of being spiritually dead (not created "in Christ") and in need of spiritual life (in Christ).

The ONLY place that introduces the idea of "spiritual death" entering the world is man's tradition.

Many a heresy starts with a misunderstanding of the fall, and it's consequences.

EXACTLY! That is why the introduction of this man-made narrative about a "spiritual death" is so dangerous. It has far reaching consequences.

 

[Reformed]

Sometimes people over think things Reformed. I suspect something like that might be taking place here.
When the historic belief of the churches as expressed in confessions of faith, Catechisms, and creeds, virtually all agree here and someone reads something contrary they might be better off to really consider how the whole of believing churches let this "new idea" slip past themselves, and let only a handful of people come up with it.

Icon, It may that @JonC is being consistent with his rejection of penal substitution. No doctrine stands independently of the rest of scripture. What we believe about one thing affects what we believe about another thing and so on. I do believe in penal substitution, so I have less of a problem with spiritual death as a term and a state of being. I also have no qualms about saying that Jesus experienced physical death, although he never experienced spiritual death, as God can never be separated from God. It was Christ's physical death that is at the core of penal substitution. His suffering and death on the cross were endured for our sake. But I digress. This thread is not about penal substitution, so I will stop here.

Have a blessed day on the roads.

 

[JonC]

Icon, It may that @JonC is being consistent with his rejection of penal substitution. No doctrine stands independently of the rest of scripture. What we believe about one thing affects what we believe about another thing and so on. I do believe in penal substitution, so I have less of a problem with spiritual death as a term and a state of being. I also have no qualms about saying that Jesus experienced physical death, although he never experienced spiritual death, as God can never be separated from God. It was Christ's physical death that is at the core of penal substitution. His suffering and death on the cross were endured for our sake. But I digress. This thread is not about penal substitution, so I will stop here.

Have a blessed day on the roads.

I have not fully thought out the consequences, but you are right that a rejection of this “spiritual death” is consistent with my rejection of penal substitution. That is not why I disagree with the idea of spiritual death being introduced into the world as a result of Adam’s sin. But using the same criteria of interpretation I can advocate neither position.

I do have a difficult time dealing with theoretical positions that are more than once removed from the biblical text itself. My reasoning is that such practices weakens the foundation of a doctrine because that interpretation or view does not rest directly on the biblical text. In my personal studies I have been trying to stay away from building on theory.

What I see occurring is that theories are systematically developed from Scripture. This is necessary and even here there can be legitimate disagreement. But then these systematically derived theories are read back into Scripture and the process is repeated until a tradition is formed.

The result is a tradition that stands not on Scripture itself but on various theories several times removed from the biblical text.

The evidence is on this this thread. I have provided passages describing “spiritual life” as being in Christ alone. The rebuttal from @Iconoclast is that I have not explained how “spiritual death” entered the world. The challenge assumes something true which is not actually present in Scripture because it is an essential element of a larger accepted theory.

 

[loDebar]

Spiritual death is separation from God, or sin, unable to respond to spiritual stimuli.
Christ suffered separation from God on the cross when He became sin for us.
Because of who He was as God the sin debt was paid. Because of who He wad as man, we can share in the death.
There is no more spiritual death due to the cross because sin is conquered.

 

[InTheLight]

Spiritual death is separation from God, or sin, unable to respond to spiritual stimuli.

The OP's point is that the phrase "spiritual death" is not Biblical. He fully agrees that there is a state of being "spiritually dead".

 

[Van]

I think human spiritual death occurred to Adam and Eve, they were separated from God due to the sin of Adam. The rest of us were conceived in a spiritually dead state.

Turning to the issue of did Jesus suffer spiritual death when He became "sin for us." If he became sin, then He would have been separated from our Holy God. But, OTOH, what if "sin for us" is a mistranslation and an accurate one would be He became a "sin offering for us. Then we do not need to do injustice to our doctrine of One God in Three Persons to One God separated from the other Two Gods briefly.

Certainly Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, "why have you forsaken Me," but we have other non spiritual death interpretations Jesus was still part of the Trinity, but the Father interrupted communications to fulfill scripture.

 

[loDebar]

The OP's point is that the phrase "spiritual death" is not Biblical. He fully agrees that there is a state of being "spiritually dead".

How there be a state of being spiritually dead without spiritually death, except to suggest some have never been spiritually alive?


Mat 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
The physical alive are called "dead"

 

[JonC]

How there be a state of being spiritually dead without spiritually death, except to suggest some have never been spiritually alive?


Mat 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
The physical alive are called "dead"

Rocks are physically dead (they are not alive...Scripture isn't a science book).

Are you suggesting there had to be a time rocks were physically alive?

 

[loDebar]

Rocks are physically dead (they are not alive...Scripture isn't a science book).

Are you suggesting there had to be a time rocks were physically alive?

They physically exist and are move by the physical, does a rock react to spiritual?

a spiritual being is can react to the spiritual , and is the only being ever created who can relate to the physical and spiritual.

 

[JonC]

They physically exist and are move by the physical, does a rock react to spiritual?

a spiritual being is can react to the spiritual , and is the only being ever created who can relate to the physical and spiritual.

Exactly.

Now go back to Scripture. Is there a passage that describes Adam as being "spiritually alive" and then experiencing a "spiritual death"?

That was rhetorical....there isn't. When faced with the choice Adam acted in the flesh (he did his will and sinned) not in the spirit.

Scripture tells us that spiritual life is ONLY in Christ. Why do we even want to theorize there was ever another way? Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world - not God's "first aid kit" but our Savior in Whom we are made alive.

 

[loDebar]

Exactly.

Now go back to Scripture. Is there a passage that describes Adam as being "spiritually alive" and then experiencing a "spiritual death"?

That was rhetorical....there isn't. When faced with the choice Adam acted in the flesh (he did his will and sinned) not in the spirit.

Scripture tells us that spiritual life is ONLY in Christ. Why do we even want to theorize there was ever another way? Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world - not God's "first aid kit" but our Savior in Whom we are made alive.

Correct , we were spiritually dead, Made spiritually alive by a relationship with God. We can abide in Him.

but Here is your Problem, I have to be spiritually able to understand in order to accept spiritual things like salvation,, so how can have something in order to get the same thing?

 

[JonC]

Correct , we were spiritually dead, Made spiritually alive by a relationship with God. We can abide in Him.

but Here is your Problem, I have to be spiritually able to understand in order to accept spiritual things like salvation,, so how can have something in order to get the same thing?

When Peter understood these things Jesus told him the Spirit had revealed it to him.

I suspect it is the same with us - that God reveals truth to us. Maybe this is why John uses terms like "Light".

 

[InTheLight]

Correct , we were spiritually dead, Made spiritually alive by a relationship with God. We can abide in Him.

but Here is your Problem, I have to be spiritually able to understand in order to accept spiritual things like salvation,, so how can have something in order to get the same thing?

When do people experience "spiritual death"?

 

[loDebar]

When Peter understood these things Jesus told him the Spirit had revealed it to him.

I suspect it is the same with us - that God reveals truth to us. Maybe this is why John uses terms like "Light".

All truth comes from God.

But we teach God made us alive to we can understand and be made alive It is not logical

 

[loDebar]

When do people experience "spiritual death"?

When did we become spiritually dead? Remember , I believe in the pre existance of the soul. So that is my position, We are spiritually dead until we can be spiritually aware as human then can accept or reject accept salvation,
We are condemned already, John 3:

I believe Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(this is not salvation but being born a human) becoming a spiritually alive human so that we can understand and make choices

 

[The Biblicist]

You are right that Scripture speaks of natural man as being spiritually dead.

But Scripture never even implies a "spiritual death". .

That spiritual death is fully described as occuring in Adam at the point of sin experiencing spiritual death occurred (separtion from God spiritually), and that state of spiritual death is "passed" to all mankind and that is why the scripture never describes a spiritual death in any of Adam's descendents is because it occurred in Adam and was passed to them. Just that simple.

What is pure mythical thinking, totally oxymoronic is to admit that "spiritual death" exists in all men but there is no cause for that death, meaning there is nothing that caused that death - that is what is mythical and oxymoronic.

Romans 5:12 demands the entrance of "death" with that act of sin and that "death" event is what is spiritual separation is a "spiritual death" and it is "passed" down and that is why all descendent are in that state of spiritual death. So simple, so clear, but your view demands death without any beginning point of death and that is pure mythical.

 

[loDebar]

That spiritual death is fully described as occuring in Adam at the point of sin spiritual death occurred (separtion from God spiritually), and that state of spiritual death is "passed" to all mankind and that is why the scripture never describes a spiritual death in any of Adam's descendents is because it occurred in Adam and was passed to them. Just that simple.

Why is pure mythical thinking, totally oxymoronic is to admit that "spiritual death" exists in all men but there is no cause for that death, meaning there is nothing that caused that death - that is what is mythical and oxymoronic.

Romans 5:12 demands the entrance of "death" with that act of sin and that "death" event is what is spiritual separation is a "spiritual death" and it is "passed" down and that is why all descendent are in that state of spiritual death. So simple, so clear, but your view is demands death without any beginning point of death and that is pure mythical.

no offense, you are preaching to the choir, I believed everything you write, but more know

You are only considering the physical . Consider the spiritual and it is more important,

Jesus said to physically alive Jews, let the dead bury their dead, He was not joking
research the use of dead, darkness, etc in regard to sinful man.

 

[The Biblicist]

He admits there is "spiritual death" but denies there is any event that cause it. This is like admitting someone IS dead but they never DIED at any previous point in time. This is pure nonsense.

Death in its TOTALITY both physical and spiritual originated with Adam and the sin of Adam and was "passed" down in its TOTALITY to mankind.

 

[loDebar]

He admits there is "spiritual death" but denies there is any event that cause it. This is like admitting someone IS dead but they never DIED at any previous point in time. This is pure nonsense.

The event is recorded .We have confused the participants because we are looking back through redemption.

It is trying to figure out what caused Titanic to sink from a lifeboat at the scene

 

[JonC]

All truth comes from God.

But we teach God made us alive to we can understand and be made alive It is not logical

I am not arguing against "spiritual life" or that natural man is "spiritually dead".