Featured Spiritual Death

We certainly need to guard against tradition. Firstly, we must fight against the 150+ year old tradition of not understanding what the Puritans used to call the 'sinfulness of sin.' Secondly we must guard against the more recent tradition of regarding everything written by those who went before us as unworthy of regard (unless of course, we think it might help our argument ). Thirdly, there is the tradition that unfortunately has grown up on this board, of calling the Biblical views of those one disagrees with 'traditions' as a smear and to avoid having to deal with them seriously.

But we must deal, first and foremost, with the Scriptures. First of all, we can all agree, I hope, that mankind is by nature dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-5 etc.). But this death is not a physical death, since sinners are very much alive, so what sort of death is it? It is a spiritual death. So what does that mean? It means that the unsaved have no spiritual life in them; they cannot react positively to the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). So people do not die spiritually for the very good reason that they are born spiritually dead.

And yet we are told, 'Truly, this only I have found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes' (Ecclesiastes 7:29). The Hebrew word for 'man' here is Adam. The Hebrew word which the KJV translates as 'upright' is yashar. As @The Biblicist has pointed out, the word is translated as 'righteous' nine times. Also, God is described as 'upright' in Psalms 25:8; 92:15, and His 'testimonies' as 'upright' in Psalm 119:138. It would therefore be possible, I think, to translate Ecclesiastes 7:29 as '.....God made Adam righteous, but men have sought out many schemes.'

Now let's look at Genesis 2:16-17. '.......Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.' Now there is no sense in one can imagine God adding, "And if you don't eat of it you are still going to die!" No, No; the corollary of Gen 2:17 is that if Adam did not eat of the tree he would not die. If he did not die, he would have lived forever q.e.d.

Now if 'the wages of sin is death,' how can it be argued that Adam was created a sinner? It makes no sense. 'The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born......' (Psalms 58:3). If Adam was created a sinner, he was under sentence of death from Day One.

I have more to add, particularly on the 'sinfulness of sin' and God's detestation of it, which makes it utterly impossible for God to have created a sinner and then call His creation 'very good.' But this will have to do for the present time.

 

As usual, you totally ignore the problems presented and simply repeat your talking points which are absurd.

Try dealing with the arguments that oppose your theory! Deal with the following especially the words in bold.

Adam is the only man that experienced spiritual death as he is the only man who at one point in his life was without it, until he sinned, and then he experienced its origin with his sin OR do you beleive he was the only SINNER not spiritually dead??????? And if he was spiritually dead as a sinner when did he experience it? before he sinned? When he sinned? After he sinned?

 

You have offered no evidence it is a tradition. In fact, you have proven that your view is a tradition and myth. On one hand you admit that "spiritual death" is a Biblical reality but on the other hand you deny it has any source or origin in any man. Since "death" in any form is the judgement of God upon sin, then you have God judging men by a "death" where there is no just cause, because according to you there is no origin, source where it began and so no just ground to bring it upon men. Now, that is pure mythical to the tee!

 

Jon holds a position that admits the reality of spiritual death, but denies that any human being ever experienced it in the sense of becoming spiritually dead (as that would demand they had been spiritually alive). Hence, he admits this is a form of "death" but denies it has origin with any man but yet "death" in any sense is God's judgement on sin. So, he has God condemning us with "spiritual death" without any just cause because he denies any human being ever did anything to deserve it, thus anything worth of EXPERIENCING it.

So, his view must condemn God for injustice for bringing "spiritual death" upon man. So, this view would then logically must deny "spiritual death" is part and parcel with "death" because "death" had a beginning point, an experience point, an entrance point by one man (Adam) and his sin, thus "death" originated with Adam and his sin and Adam is the only possible human being who has a BEFORE and AFTER life with regard to sin and thus the only possible human being that could "experience" spiritual death as there is point in his life where sin did not exist and a point where sin originated in his life.

Furthermore, if you deny that Adam experienced spiritual death then he is the only fallen human being that can be a sinner and yet without "spiritual death" and if that is true then no origin for spiritual death exists in time and space and therefore all mankind are condemned for something that he denies has any origin with man or sin. Hence, we have a form of "death" not sinful and yet it is a STATE OF SIN by its very characteristics.

This is the absolue nonsense one must embrace to embrace the myth Jon embraces.

In contrast, our position is that "death" IN ALL OF ITS FULLNESS (SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL) entered the world by one man's sin and in its FULLNESS was "passed" upon all mankind and that is precisely why at conception they are found IN A STATE OF SPIRITUAL DEATH.

It should be quite easy to see whose position is really myth and unbiblical. If you respond by using the previous sentence only and do not provide evidence that my characterization of his position is wrong, then, you are simply advertising your own ignorance.

 

Was Adam born again after the fall??? If not, is he outside of Christ and in hell today or is there salvation from sin outside of Christ? If so, does not that demand he was "dead in trespasses and sins"? Was he "dead in tresspasses and sins" prior to the sin event? If not, when did he experience transition into spiritual death?

 

No, your myth self-implodes on itself. You admit that "spiritual death" is a Biblical reality but then deny it has any origin in the Bible - go figure that one???

My view is based precisely on the very same biblical grounds for your view and that is "spiritual death" is a Biblical reality and therefore it follows it has a source and origin found in the Bible.

Is "spiritual death" distinct and separate from the "death" that entered the world by Adam's sin? If it has no origin with the same origin of "death" then how can God be just in condemning us with spiritual death as a state or condition?

 

READERS

Those who believe as I do, that being "spiritual dead" is a state or condition since conception and is part and parcel with (inclusive of) "death" which entered the world and was "passed" upon all mankind by one man's sin can deal with Jon's philosophical arguments as well as his very few biblical arguments. However, notice that he refuses to deal with either our Biblical or philosophical arguments. Why? Because he can't.

Nor do we deny that eternal life is in Christ Alone. However, we believe Adam sinned and thereby became a sinner by nature and by choice just as we and therefore needed "spiritual life" found "in Christ" for only those "spiritually dead." There is a point in his life when he was not a sinner, and was not spiritually dead and those two different aspects of his life are divided by that one act of disobedience, where he transitioned by experience into spiritual death and thereby need spiritual life in Christ. Is Adam the only sinner that is not "spiritually dead"? Can you be a sinner and not be "spiritually dead". This is what Jon's view demands.

 

We are born in a state apart from God, not in relationship with Him, not having a nature that can communicate with Him, and we are dead in our sins, how can that not be spiritual dead? If not dead, why is it said that we are reborn to spiritual life, to eternal lif ein Christ, if we have not passed from being spiritually dead to alive?
And Jesus had to bypass becoming a human being with that sin condition in order to qualify as messiah!

 

All humans have a spirit/soul though, correct?
That is what is born dead and defective, and made alive again in Christ!

 

Jon seems to believe that we were not affected by the fall, as he does seem to equate Jesus being born with same nature as us, so of course we could not be born with sin natures/spiritually dead!

 

Jesus needed to be Virgin Born, conceived by the Holy Spirit in order to have Him bypass the effects of the fall, as all of us sinned in Adam and tasted His spiritual death, as per us. Why did he need to be Virgin born, according to your position here?

 

We share the same Biblical evidence up to a point as your view admits man is "spiritually DEAD" and your view demands "spiritually dead" men find life only "in Christ." From this point forward your view rests totally upon silence and philsophical speculation.

Your view fails to provide any Biblical answers for the origin for being "spiritual dead." If you say it is due to the origin of sin or the nature of death that entered the world by Adam's sin (Rom.5:12) your view completely self-implodes because that would demand that the experience of spiritual death originated with that sin and death, and therefore, Adam was not "spiritually dead" prior to that sin but either must have become "spiritually dead" by that sin OR he is the only sinner that ever lived who was a "sinner" but not "spiritually dead" and therefore needed no "spiritual life" in Christ and is still outside of Christ and in hell today.

If you deny it originates with Adam and his sin, and that it is not part and parcel with "death" that entered the world because of that sin and is "passed" upon all mankind then you are charging God for unjustly condemning to a state of spiritual deadness which has no origin with Adam, with sin or with death.

Anyway you turn, your theory self-implodes.

 

Yes...post fall. Richard Barcellos has written a book getting the garden right. I have not ordered it yet, but it might be helpful.

 

Jon C position just does not seem to be what paul explained to us concerning the 2 Adams!

 

JonC is.