Spiritual Death

[The Biblicist]

The event is recorded .We have confused the participants because we are looking back through redemption.

It is trying to figure out what caused Titanic to sink from a lifeboat at the scene

Not only is the event fully recorded (Gen. 3) but fully explained (Rom. 5:12-19). Spiritual death does not originate with us any more than physical death originates with us but BOTH originate in Adam and with the sin of Adam and it is that "DEATH" (spiritual and physical) that is "passed" down or ELSE WE WOULD HAVE NEITHER.

 

[InTheLight]

Not only is the event fully recorded (Gen. 3) but fully explained (Rom. 5:12-19). Spiritual death does not originate with us any more than physical death originates with us but BOTH originate in Adam and with the sin of Adam and it is that "DEATH" (spiritual and physical) that is "passed" down or ELSE WE WOULD HAVE NEITHER.

So, I'll ask again--when does a person experience "spiritual death"?

 

[JonC]

He admits there is "spiritual death" but denies there is any event that cause it. This is like admitting someone IS dead but they never DIED at any previous point in time. This is pure nonsense.

You are missing the point entirely.

I was born spiritually dead. I needed a rebirth, not a revival. I was born "not in Christ" and needed Life.

You are relying too much on your assumptions and too little on Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not arguing against "spiritual life" or that natural man is "spiritually dead".

But you are making the pure oxymoronic arguement that something can be dead but never died. You admit the presence of spiritual death but deny any origin for it. Death includes both and neither have their origin with us so both must have their origin with Adam and his sin or else we would have NEITHER.

 

[Iconoclast]

He admits there is "spiritual death" but denies there is any event that cause it. This is like admitting someone IS dead but they never DIED at any previous point in time. This is pure nonsense.

Death in its TOTALITY both physical and spiritual originated with Adam and the sin of Adam and was "passed" down in its TOTALITY to mankind.

Yes, it also presents the scriptural absurdity that a man who is just flesh[ devoid of a spirit evidently],
Somehow has full ability to commune with God.
This error shows how error in the garden leads to a floodgate of errors being released.

 

[The Biblicist]

So, I'll ask again--when does a person experience "spiritual death"?

Didn't realize you ever asked the first time. Must have missed your post. We EXIST in spiritual death from conception as we came into this world "without God" in a STATE OF SIN which is the essence of SPIRITUAL DEATH. So, only Adam EXPERIENCE becoming spiritually dead as he is the only human being created not in a state of spiritual death. The TOTALITY of death was "passed" down from Adam to us. Spiritual death is the cause for our physical death and therefore if BOTH were not '"passed" down from Adam we would have NEITHER.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are missing the point entirely.

I was born spiritually dead. I needed a rebirth, not a revival. I was born "not in Christ" and needed Life.

You are relying too much on your assumptions and too little on Scripture.

If you and all other men are born spiritually dead, it was because of rom3:23 .9
Adam was originally upright but yet untested.
He failed the test, that is why spiritual death is the natural default condition. When we are quickened eph2:1 God restored the image, plus added to it.1thess5:23.

 

[The Biblicist]

The OP's point is that the phrase "spiritual death" is not Biblical. He fully agrees that there is a state of being "spiritually dead".

In other words, he agrees that "spiritual death" is Biblical because he fully agrees there is a state of being "spiritually dead" UNLESS HIS BELIEF IS BASED ON MYTH???????? Can't have it both ways!

 

[JonC]

But you are making the pure oxymoronic arguement that something can be dead but never died. You admit the presence of spiritual death but deny any origin for it. Death includes both and neither have their origin with us so both must have their origin with Adam and his sin or else we would have NEITHER.

Scripture teaches that we are dead in sin and need spiritual life.

Spiritual life is ONLY in Christ. There is no other spiritual life.

 

[JonC]

If you and all other men are born spiritually dead, it was because of rom3:23 .
Adam was originally upright but yet untestef

When did you experience spiritual death?

 

[JonC]

But you are making the pure oxymoronic arguement that something can be dead but never died. You admit the presence of spiritual death but deny any origin for it. Death includes both and neither have their origin with us so both must have their origin with Adam and his sin or else we would have NEITHER.

When did you experience spiritual death?

 

[The Biblicist]

Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead" (Matt. 8) ......BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death".

Lets get this straight! Scripture provides proof of being "spiritually dead" but scripture never speak of spiritual death"???? So "dead" does not mean "death"??? I think you mean to say the Bible clearly teaches a state of spiritual death but it never speaks of THE ENTRANCE POINT INTO SPIRITUAL DEATH simply because we entered this world already condemned, already spiritually dead. So you deny any cause for fallen man entering into this world in the state of spiritual death????? If not, then what is the cause, because whatever the cause is, that is also the entry point.

So, you deny any beginning point into spiritual death in scripture? So, you deny the entry point of "death" into the world by one man's sin (Rom. 5:12) to be the entry point of spiritual death and thus there is no cause, there is point where spiritual death begins.

Death in its fullest meaning has its beginning point in one man in his one act of sin and "death" in its full meaning is what has been "passed" from Adam to all mankind and that is the origin of spiritual death cannot be found in us.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm not debating if people are spiritually dead. That is the default condition of humanity.

I'm merely stating that the term "spiritual death" is not in the Bible, nor do people experience "spiritual death". People that are unsaved (or unjustified, or unredeemed, or whatever phrase you like) are spiritually dead and cannot die a "spiritual death" because they were never spiritually alive.

 

[The Biblicist]

When did you experience spiritual death?

Already answered this once. Spiritual death is a STATE or CONDITION that existed from conception and it is experienced with regards to only its effects. Adam is the only man that experienced spiritual death as he is the only man who at one point in his life was without it, until he sinned, and then he experienced its origin with his sin OR do you beleive he was the only SINNER not spiritually dead???????

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not debating if people are spiritually dead. That is the default condition of humanity.

I'm merely stating that the term "spiritual death" is not in the Bible, nor do people experience "spiritual death". People that are unsaved (or unjustified, or unredeemed, or whatever phrase you like) are spiritually dead and cannot die a "spiritual death" because they were never spiritually alive.

I see, you are just arguing that something IS true of all mankind but had no ORIGIN with any human! You are just arguing that you can be DEAD but never DIED. Of course, that has to be your oxymoronic view because you deny spiritual death has its origin with one man - Adam - and with his one sin which the Bible say is the CAUSE for "death" entering into this world, but your view of that "death" denies it includes spiritual death but only physical death and yet it is spiritual death that is the cause for our physical death. Total absolute nonsense.

 

[JonC]

Lets get this straight! Scripture provides proof of being "spiritually dead" but scripture never speak of spiritual death"???? So "dead" does not mean "death"??? I think you mean to say the Bible clearly teaches a state of spiritual death but it never speaks of THE ENTRANCE POINT INTO SPIRITUAL DEATH simply because we entered this world already condemned, already spiritually dead. So you deny any cause for fallen man entering into this world in the state of spiritual death????? If not, then what is the cause, because whatever the cause is, that is also the entry point.

So, you deny any beginning point into spiritual death in scripture? So, you deny the entry point of "death" into the world by one man's sin (Rom. 5:12) to be the entry point of spiritual death and thus there is no cause, there is point where spiritual death begins.

Death in its fullest meaning has its beginning point in one man in his one act of sin and "death" in its full meaning is what has been "passed" from Adam to all mankind and that is the origin of spiritual death cannot be found in us.

When did you experience spiritual death?

(And I agree @InTheLight )

 

[The Biblicist]

When did you experience spiritual death?

(And I agree @InTheLight )

Already answered this twice. Spiritual death is a STATE or CONDITION that existed from conception and it is experienced with regards to only its effects. Adam is the only man that experienced spiritual death as he is the only man who at one point in his life was without it, until he sinned, and then he experienced its origin with his sin OR do you beleive he was the only SINNER not spiritually dead??????? And if he was spiritually dead as a sinner when did he experience it? before he sinned? When he sinned? After he sinned?

 

[InTheLight]

I see, you are just arguing that something IS true of all mankind but had no ORIGIN with any human!

I never said anything remotely like that. You are putting words in my mouth. You are making a strawman argument.

You are just arguing that you can be DEAD but never DIED.

You are saying that because you just stated that people experience spiritual death at conception.

Of course, that has to be your oxymoronic view because you deny spiritual death has its origin with one man - Adam - and with his one sin which the Bible say is the CAUSE for "death" entering into this world,

Of course, I fully agree with the idea that Adam's sin is the cause of death entering the world.

but your view of that "death" denies it includes spiritual death but only physical death and yet it is spiritual death that is the cause for our physical death. Total absolute nonsense.

Whereas your contention that people experience spiritual death at conception is high concept theology!

 

[JonC]

Already answered this twice. Spiritual death is a STATE or CONDITION that existed from conception and it is experienced with regards to only its effects. Adam is the only man that experienced spiritual death as he is the only man who at one point in his life was without it, until he sinned, and then he experienced its origin with his sin OR do you beleive he was the only SINNER not spiritually dead??????? And if was spiritually dead as a sinner when did he experience it? before he sinned? When he sinned? After he sinned?

So you never actually experienced spiritual death but you were born in the state of being spiritually dead?


I agree with Scripture that spiritual life is ONLY in Christ. I believe this is an eternal truth (there has never existed Life apart from Christ because He IS that Life). We will never agree here because you are a bit too invested in your tradition.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are saying that because you just stated that people experience spiritual death at conception.

No, I never said that at all. Spiritual death is a STATE or CONDITION from conception and we only experience its effects. Jon uses the word "experience" to mean "becoming" spiritually dead and the only human being that experienced "becoming" spiritual dead is Adam as he is the only person in whom this STATE or CONDITION did not exist at one time in his life but experienced it or became spiritual dead at the point of sin. If you don't believe that then you are forced to believe the idea that Adam is the only sinner in history not to be spiritually dead "in tresspasses and sins."

Of course, I fully agree with the idea that Adam's sin is the cause of death entering the world.

But you deny "death" in its fullness entered the world, which includes "spiritual death" and that is why you can't find any originating point in human history where any man experiened spiritual death!!! The truth is that "death" in its fullest sense entered into this world by the sin of one man and that "death" in its fullest sense "passed" upon all other mankind and that is the reason no other human experiencing entrance into spiritual death as that would demand they were previously spiritually alive. Right? And since you deny Adam was spiritually alive prior to his sin then you deny there can be experience of spiritual death by any human or any beginning point or origin for any human experiencing it.