Spiritual Death

[JonC]

Jon, your only way out is either to admit you are wrong or deny that we are born in a spiritual dead condition.

I choose a third option (one you did not see).

Natural man is of the flesh (dead to the spirit). Spiritual man (men "in Christ" or "born of the spirit") are have spiritual life (dead to the flesh).

In other words, I reject both of your offers in favor of Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

I choose a third option (one you did not see).

Natural man is of the flesh (dead to the spirit). Spiritual man (men "in Christ" or "born of the spirit") are have spiritual life (dead to the flesh).

In other words, I reject both of your offers in favor of Scripture.

Your third option is nonsensical because Adam was made of "flesh" and yet he was not "spiritually dead" at least prior to the sin event. Since, our "flesh" all comes from Adam then when did it transition from being not "spiritually dead" to becoming "spiritually dead" and WHAT WAS THE JUST GROUNDS FOR THAT TRANSITION?

 

[Revmitchell]

Every tradition has unique ways of expressing theological issues in Scripture. Often these expressions speak more to the questions of believers than they do to truths actually provided in Scripture. Often people seem to have a need to "smoothe out" biblical doctrine or fill in blanks to create a flowing narrative that suits their traditions or theories.

This seems to have occured in some traditions of "spiritual death". I understand a need for simplification, especially when dealing with children. But at some point the believer needs to consult Scripture with the submission suited men approaching God's revelation.

Scripture explains what it is to be "spiritually alive". In the third chapter of John we see Jesus explaining to Nicodemus the need for a spiritual birth. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. Like begats like.

Scripture teaches that this life is in Christ, and in Him alone. This life IS Christ. And this life, unlike the flesh, is not temporal.

Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead" (Matt. 8) and they will experience a "second death" as hades and death are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20).

BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death". The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.

So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?

I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.

I do not know that this is a bad thing. We create stories to explain important truths to children. We use illustrations in sermons to communicate biblical doctrine to congregations. The danger is when people do not recognize the stories for what they are and build on the fiction.

I was sad to see the misuse of the funny rating. I do not see anything funny about what you have posted. It seems there is a crowd that wants to misuse certain ratings in order to communicate their disagreement with posts. In doing so some of the ratings have been taken away. I see it as childish to misuse them that way.

As far as your op Romans 6:23 comes to mind.

 

[JonC]

I was sad to see the misuse of the funny rating. I do not see anything funny about what you have posted. It seems there is a crowd that wants to misuse certain ratings in order to communicate their disagreement with posts. In doing so some of the ratings have been taken away. I see it as childish to misuse them that way.

As far as your op Romans 6:23 comes to mind.

I agree with the rating issue. It is reflective of society, I suppose. The majority looses something and a small minorty simply chooses another thing to abuse.

As far as the OP goes I agree. I believe Scripture never speaks of spiritual life except it be in Christ Jesus. And I do not see another type of spiritual life that is or was temporary mentioned in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

Your third option is nonsensical because Adam was made of "flesh" and yet he was not "spiritually dead" at least prior to the sin event. Since, our "flesh" all comes from Adam then when did it transition from being not "spiritually dead" to becoming "spiritually dead" and WHAT WAS THE JUST GROUNDS FOR THAT TRANSITION?

What verse are you pointing to that describes Adam "spiritually alive", "in Christ", or "of the spirit"...and then falling away from Christ, spiritually dying, and becoming no longer "of the spirit"?

I can find a few that seem to indicate the opposite, but not the verse you seem to have discovered.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree with the rating issue. It is reflective of society, I suppose. The majority looses something and a small minorty simply chooses another thing to abuse.

As far as the OP goes I agree. I believe Scripture never speaks of spiritual life except it be in Christ Jesus. And I do not see another type of spiritual life that is or was temporary mentioned in the Bible.

Romans 6:23 also speaks to spiritual death

 

[JonShaff]

Your third option is nonsensical because Adam was made of "flesh" and yet he was not "spiritually dead" at least prior to the sin event. Since, our "flesh" all comes from Adam then when did it transition from being not "spiritually dead" to becoming "spiritually dead" and WHAT WAS THE JUST GROUNDS FOR THAT TRANSITION?

I'll let @JonC speak for himself and clarify, but i believe this is the gist of what he is saying

Adam was born with flesh, Soul, spirit--one that was not "Spiritual". It was not "union-ized" With Christ.

Because Adam sinned, Judgment came upon all the world. One of those Judgments was death, Physical death. A separation of one's body from their soul and spirit.

Adam was never "infused" with the Presence of God. So, we share the same condition as Adam, "dead" in our trespasses and sins. We are separated from the Presence of God--meaning we are not Spiritual. And because Adam took on shame and guilt, we too bear the shame and guilt of Adam's sin. That's why death has passed on from Adam to Moses without the law.

What happens to those who remain "Spiritually dead" or "Not Alive-in-Christ"? They go to the lake of fire, the second death.

It is appointed to men once to die, and then the judgment. All die Physically, but only those who are not Spiritually alive will die the second death--the lake of fire.

Those who are Christ's, are made alive and Receive His Life. The Only Life there is.

In Adam, God shows us that there is no life apart from Life with God.

 

[JonC]

Romans 6:23 also speaks to spiritual death

Which translation? The one that comes up just says "the wages of sin is death" which could refer to the two biblical deaths (a physical death and a "second death") but there is no mention of a third one where the spiritually alive die spiritually.

 

[JonC]

I'll let @JonC speak for himself and clarify, but i believe this is the gist of what he is saying

Adam was born with flesh, Soul, spirit--one that was not "Spiritual". It was not "union-ized" With Christ.

Because Adam sinned, Judgment came upon all the world. One of those Judgments was death, Physical death. A separation of one's body from their soul and spirit.

Adam was never "infused" with the Presence of God. So, we share the same condition as Adam, "dead" in our trespasses and sins. We are separated from the Presence of God--meaning we are not Spiritual. And because Adam took on shame and guilt, we too bear the shame and guilt of Adam's sin. That's why death has passed on from Adam to Moses without the law.

What happens to those who remain "Spiritually dead" or "Not Alive-in-Christ"? They go to the lake of fire, the second death.

It is appointed to men once to die, and then the judgment. All die Physically, but only those who are not Spiritually alive will die the second death--the lake of fire.

Those who are Christ's, are made alive and Receive His Life. The Only Life there is.

In Adam, God shows us that there is no life apart from Life with God.

I'll let you speak for me because you put it more better than me.

You are absolutely correct.

 

[The Biblicist]

What verse are you pointing to that describes Adam "spiritually alive", "in Christ", or "of the spirit"?

I can find a few that seem to indicate the opposite, but not the verse you seem to have discovered.

Your view is based upon inference as much as my view as you have no scripture that denies it. Genesis 2:17 says he "died" when he ate and so we know that death had its entrance at that point. You argue that did not include death in the form of "dead in tresspasses and sins" or being "spiritually dead." I argue it does include death in all of its forms and expressions all the way up to the second death.

 

[JonC]

Your view is based upon inference as much as my view as you have no scripture that denies it. Genesis 2:17 says he "died" when he ate and so we know that death had its entrance at that point. You argue that did not include death in the form of "dead in tresspasses and sins" or being "spiritually dead." I argue it does include death in all of its forms and expressions all the way up to the second death.

I have no Scripture that denies Scripture does not speak of one dying spiritually????? Are you seriously going to present that kind of elementary fallacy?

I could see this with some, but you are a better than this academically.

That said, the proof is in what Scripture itself defines as spiritual life. And it has been proven unless you are now arguing life outside of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'll let @JonC speak for himself and clarify, but i believe this is the gist of what he is saying

Adam was born with flesh, Soul, spirit--one that was not "Spiritual". It was not "union-ized" With Christ.

It was directly unionized with God as it came directly from God. Can you name anyone directly infused (Lit. Heb. "inspirited") directly by God's Spirit???? Adam was!

Because Adam sinned, Judgment came upon all the world. One of those Judgments was death, Physical death. A separation of one's body from their soul and spirit.

Is one form of death "dead in sins" or existing as "spirituallly dead"? If not, from whence did this form of death originate? Or now are you denying spiritual deadness exists?

Adam was never "infused" with the Presence of God. So, we share the same condition as Adam, "dead" in our trespasses and sins. We are separated from the Presence of God--meaning we are not Spiritual. And because Adam took on shame and guilt, we too bear the shame and guilt of Adam's sin. That's why death has passed on from Adam to Moses without the law.

So you are saying "dead' with reference to the spirit means non-existent spirit? If that is the case, why didn't Paul say that our spirit is simply non-existent rather than "dead IN tresspasses and sins" or in the sphere of sin?

 

[MB]

Every tradition has unique ways of expressing theological issues in Scripture. Often these expressions speak more to the questions of believers than they do to truths actually provided in Scripture. Often people seem to have a need to "smoothe out" biblical doctrine or fill in blanks to create a flowing narrative that suits their traditions or theories.

This seems to have occured in some traditions of "spiritual death". I understand a need for simplification, especially when dealing with children. But at some point the believer needs to consult Scripture with the submission suited men approaching God's revelation.

Scripture explains what it is to be "spiritually alive". In the third chapter of John we see Jesus explaining to Nicodemus the need for a spiritual birth. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. Like begats like.

Scripture teaches that this life is in Christ, and in Him alone. This life IS Christ. And this life, unlike the flesh, is not temporal.

Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead" (Matt. 8) and they will experience a "second death" as hades and death are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20).

BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death". The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.

So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?

I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.

I do not know that this is a bad thing. We create stories to explain important truths to children. We use illustrations in sermons to communicate biblical doctrine to congregations. The danger is when people do not recognize the stories for what they are and build on the fiction.

I believe Paul was using an illustration to convey a certain truth, that spiritual death is a figure of speach to convey that we are dead to God because of our separation from Him. It's like we don't exist to Him and yet not really dead. Just considered dead. Paul said;

Rom 8:10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,

This is a picture of the flesh after Christ is in you. As you can see the body is dead and the spirit is alive.
Although each time we sin the body springs to life again then we have to die to that sin.
Rom 8:13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

MB

 

[JonC]

Your view is based upon inference as much as my view as you have no scripture that denies it.

The larger argument is how these traditions are held.

The argument has shifted to @The Biblicist has challenged that my position is just as based upon inference as his. In other words, he is claiming that we are both on very weak ground.

If he is correct then we both need to abandon our traditions and look back to Scripture.

For me, I grant he is half right. His view is based upon inference (and that is being generous).

 

[The Biblicist]

I have no Scripture that denies Scripture does not speak of one dying spiritually????? Are you seriously going to present that kind of elementary fallacy?

What scripture denies spiritual death? NONE - hence reasoning from silence.

That said, the proof is in what Scripture itself defines as spiritual life. And it has been proven unless you are now arguing life outside of Christ.

What scripture do you have for this except in the context of those already dead in sin? NONE - hence reasoning from silence.

 

[The Biblicist]

The larger argument is how these traditions are held.

The argument has shifted to @The Biblicist has challenged that my position is just as based upon inference as his. In other words, he is claiming that we are both on very weak ground.

If he is correct then we both need to abandon our traditions and look back to Scripture.

For me, I grant he is half right. His view is based upon inference (and that is being generous).

You know that is really not what I said. I said we both are arguing on inference but my position has far greater scriptures to support my inference, whereas, your inference is contradicts scriptures galore.

 

[Revmitchell]

Which translation? The one that comes up just says "the wages of sin is death" which could refer to the two biblical deaths (a physical death and a "second death") but there is no mention of a third one where the spiritually alive die spiritually.

Uh no sorry it is not simply second death. I think you need to study what spiritual death actually is.

 

[The Biblicist]

What happens to those who remain "Spiritually dead" or "Not Alive-in-Christ"? They go to the lake of fire, the second death.

If the spirit in fallen man is non-existent how can it be re-born? or "re-generated if it is non-existent?

So, "dead in tresspasses and sins" simply means non-existent spirit due to sin? So, sin destroyed, annihilated the human spirit into nothingness?

 

[JonC]

I believe Paul was using an illustration to convey a certain truth, that spiritual death is a figure of speach to convey that we are dead to God because of our separation from Him. It's like we don't exist to Him and yet not really dead. Just considered dead. Paul said;

Rom 8:10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,

This is a picture of the flesh after Christ is in you. As you can see the body is dead and the spirit is alive.
Although each time we sin the body springs to life again then we have to die to that sin.
Rom 8:13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

MB

I can get that. Perhaps the problem, then, is when people build doctrine on illustration.

Some have used the illustration of those the lost as being spiritually dead (un-spiritually alive ) to build doctrine. They say the lost are an useless as a "corpse" and God arrives in the S.S. Salvation row - row - rowing his boat down the river Styx. The lost can't get in the boat because they are dead and corpses can't swim. So God must pull the corpse out of the water. or something along those lines - point is they build doctrine on illustration.

 

[JonShaff]

If the spirit in fallen man is non-existent how can it be re-born? or "re-generated if it is non-existent?

It is existent--but no communion/union

So, "dead in tresspasses and sins" simply means non-existent spirit due to sin? So, sin destroyed, annihilated the human spirit into nothingness?

No, it means they are not spiritually alive--no communion/fellowship with Christ.