Spiritual Interpretation....pt4

[John of Japan]

Figures of speech,metaphorical language,types,symbols, Hebrew poetry, Hebrew parallelisms, narrative writing ,parables, are used by God to communicate truth and conceal truth.

Now you're talking! Do you have Scripture for these statements?

And once again, did Keach or Chilton tell you what the NT words for figures of speech are? I think that is very relevant to this discussion. If you want to do this from Scripture rather than Chilton, Keatch, and Gentry, get started!

I have traveled in every state except Alaska. Many times I meet with people who are not well educated.
God has said that He has chosen many such people to shame the wise.
God has said, not many wise. Not many mighty,are called.
I am glad He did not say....not ANY WISE,OR NOBLE.....but it is not many.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it brings up the fact that the uneducated (yet still intelligent), the poor (yet rich in Christ), the weak (yet with Christ's strength) do not interpret the Bible spiritually. They simply believe it as is, because that is normal communication. As you know, I was a missionary for 33 years in Japan. I have also lectured in a Bible school in a Muslim country not in Africa, and have taught Bible translation methodology in an African country. Never have I had a new believer, someone completely unfamiliar with American Christian culture, decide to interpret "spiritually." That is learned behavior, not natural, so it's not God's plan for interpreting the Bible. (And they don't have to be told what figures of speech are. They understand this naturally, according to the language ability God gives to all humans.)

In And the Word Came With Power, Bible translator Joanne Shetler tells how she was translating the Bible into the language of a tribe in the Philippines. With her tribal helper she came to 1 Tim. 2:12 about women teaching men. Her tribal helper read that Scripture on Sunday to the tribal church, and said, "We found in the Bible where it says that women aren't supposed to teach men, so I guess I have to be the one" (p. 87). He interpreted literally, unlike many "civilized" evangelicals who can't abide God's truth about gender roles, and became the pastor.

Think about it. You yourself give witness that you used to interpret literally. Your current method of interpretation is learned behavior, so it's not natural interpretation.

When I look to trusted guides I know they are limited and flawed, but each has a measure of gift. The value is to provoke thought....and perhaps save time by putting forth proven ideas in a way to break it down so that lesser persons can as you said,get in the game.
...
I do not care where Chilton acquired such knowledge, but I at this point I am hard pressed to come against or replace many of the ideas offered.

You missed my main point about Chilton, which was that if he got his degrees at a degree mill, then they are fake and he was dishonest in passing himself off as a scholar with advanced degrees. I don't care what the man teaches, if he is dishonest I will ignore him and get my information elsewhere.

I have a dear friend who got a doctorate at a similar school, but then realized it was a degree mill and now does not call himself "Dr." Now that is true Christian honesty.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ken Gentry has written a paperback book last year called ...the Greatness of the Great Commission. ..the Christian enterprise in a fallen world....that I would recommend. ..the footnotes are worth the book.
Another book That has helped...You can find it on Alibris for 99cents.....The Greening of the Church .....by Findlay Edge
It was not dealing with as many verses or the timing of everything, but it dealt with the concept of God calling the church to "mission". To be involved in God's plan in this world now.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now you're talking! Do you have Scripture for these statements?

And once again, did Keach or Chilton tell you what the NT words for figures of speech are? I think that is very relevant to this discussion. If you want to do this from Scripture rather than Chilton, Keatch, and Gentry, get started!

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it brings up the fact that the uneducated (yet still intelligent), the poor (yet rich in Christ), the weak (yet with Christ's strength) do not interpret the Bible spiritually. They simply believe it as is, because that is normal communication. As you know, I was a missionary for 33 years in Japan. I have also lectured in a Bible school in a Muslim country not in Africa, and have taught Bible translation methodology in an African country. Never have I had a new believer, someone completely unfamiliar with American Christian culture, decide to interpret "spiritually." That is learned behavior, not natural, so it's not God's plan for interpreting the Bible. (And they don't have to be told what figures of speech are. They understand this naturally, according to the language ability God gives to all humans.)

In And the Word Came With Power, Bible translator Joanne Shetler tells how she was translating the Bible into the language of a tribe in the Philippines. With her tribal helper she came to 1 Tim. 2:12 about women teaching men. Her tribal helper read that Scripture on Sunday to the tribal church, and said, "We found in the Bible where it says that women aren't supposed to teach men, so I guess I have to be the one" (p. 87). He interpreted literally, unlike many "civilized" evangelicals who can't abide God's truth about gender roles, and became the pastor.

Think about it. You yourself give witness that you used to interpret literally. Your current method of interpretation is learned behavior, so it's not natural interpretation.

You missed my main point about Chilton, which was that if he got his degrees at a degree mill, then they are fake and he was dishonest in passing himself off as a scholar with advanced degrees. I don't care what the man teaches, if he is dishonest I will ignore him and get my information elsewhere.

I have a dear friend who got a doctorate at a similar school, but then realized it was a degree mill and now does not call himself "Dr." Now that is true Christian honesty.

Let me say this about that.
Nicodemus and 1st century Jews looked very literally.
Can a man go back into the womb?
Jesus had to correct this wrong idea. If you take time you can find many such examples in the gospels.
Jn 4 :20-24.....must worship in Spirit, and Truth....no so much the physical place any longer.
The Apostles many times had a natural ,literal understanding that was corrected.
Many, I would say most raised under premillennialism teaching will be hindered from understanding many portions if scripture because they have been taught not to consider it despite all the symbols used which require spiritual interpretation.

 

[Iconoclast]

In Mt3:9-11......we are told....the axe is laid at the root of the tree......
In Mt 21.....after a parable about the Vineyard. ...Israel was told the Kingdom was being taken from them.....given to another nation. ....

There are many such scriptural examples given for any who want to see them.

 

[John of Japan]

Let me say this abut that.
Nicodemus and 1st century Jews looked very literally.
Can a man go back into the womb?
Jesus had to correct this wrong idea. If you take time you can find many such examples in the gospels.

Point taken. But of course Nicodemus was immediately rebuked by Jesus, meaning he should have understood the spiritual reality. But I don't think this is a proof text for the interpretation of prophecy.

Jn 4 :20-24.....must worship in Spirit, and Truth....no so much the physical place any longer.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are saying here.

For the record, I'm a trichotomist. The spirit is that part of the human with which he communicates with God. So "spiritual" in Scripture simply refers to that, not some mysterious world we can't comprehend.

The Apostles many times had a natural ,literal understanding that was corrected.

Scripture?

Many, I would say most raised under premillennialism teaching will be hindered from understanding many portions if scripture because they have been taught not to consider it despite all the symbols used which require spiritual interpretation.

This is supercilious. Since you brought it up, my historic premil father/pastor simply preached the Word while I grew up. He believed it exactly as written. And he and Mom were wonderful Christians who did not need any "spiritual" interpretation to guide them. They lived for Christ with their whole hearts.

 

[John of Japan]

In Mt3:9-11......we are told....the axe is laid at the root of the tree......
In Mt 21.....after a parable about the Vineyard. ...Israel was told the Kingdom was being taken from them.....given to another nation. ....

There are many such scriptural examples given for any who want to see them.

Right back at you--figures of speech. Your point?

Since you won't answer my question (more than a brief statement with no followup) about the purpose of figures of speech, I'll tell you. They are illustrations of truth--they either illustrate truth or they hide it from those not allowed to know it, as Jesus pointed out (and you never gave Scripture for). In other words, the parables are the sermon illustrations of Jesus. When you make the symbolic language primary, you've missed the whole point.

 

[Iconoclast]

Right back at you--figures of speech. Your point?

Since you won't answer my question (more than a brief statement with no followup) about the purpose of figures of speech, I'll tell you. They are illustrations of truth--they either illustrate truth or they hide it from those not allowed to know it, as Jesus pointed out (and you never gave Scripture for). In other words, the parables are the sermon illustrations of Jesus. When you make the symbolic language primary, you've missed the whole point.

In Matthew 13:11-17....it is clear....you need me to show you such things?
Try mt11:25....Jesus thanks the Father....because He has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes.....
Now perhaps it is you who missed the point,the verses concerning the sun, moon and stars, are not parables...but the language used communicates Divine truth.
Can you show any premil book that deals with that language other than trying to explain it away as shooting stars, or forcing literal ideas where they plainly do not fit?
Most of my premillennialism books avoid those passages as you are doing now, because that system has no allowance for the language.

 

[John of Japan]

In Matthew 13:11-17....it is clear....you need me to show you such things?
Try mt11:25....Jesus thanks the Father....because He has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes.....
Now perhaps it is you who missed the point,the verses concerning the sun, moon and stars, are not parables...but the language used communicates Divine truth.
Can you show any premil book that deals with that language other than trying to explain it away as shooting stars, or forcing literal ideas where they plainly do not fit?
Most of my premillennialism books avoid those passages as you are doing now, because that system has no allowance for the language.

Wait. You finally answer my question somewhat, then you bring up the sun, moon and stars, and then accuse me of avoiding the passage when you've just now mentioned it? For crying out loud, I was agreeing with you at one point that some truths are hidden, referring to this passage and waiting for you to actually reference it. Are you even reading my posts? You yourself on these threads have been saying to people, "Show me Scripture," but when I refer to a passage while waiting for you to bring it up, I'm avoiding it? Are you even reading my posts??? Looks to me like you've run out of arguments so you're resorting to personal attacks.

Tell you what. Try again. Ask me any direct question on any Scripture and I'll answer it.

 

[Covenanter]

Tell you what. Try again. Ask me any direct question on any Scripture and I'll answer it.

When did Gabriel's 70 weeks end, or are we still waiting for the 70th week to start?

 

[John of Japan]

When did Gabriel's 70 weeks end, or are we still waiting for the 70th week to start?

The 69th week marked the death of Christ on the cross, using the concurrent Jewish calendar of 30 days in a month. The 70th week will be the 7 year tribulation.

 

[Covenanter]

The 69th week marked the death of Christ on the cross, using the concurrent Jewish calendar of 30 days in a month. The 70th week will be the 7 year tribulation.

Thank you.

Gabriel told Daniel:

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. Dan. 9:24​

That prophesies the saving work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Was he mistaken when he prayed :

I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. John 17:4​

 

[Iconoclast]

Wait. You finally answer my question somewhat, then you bring up the sun, moon and stars, and then accuse me of avoiding the passage when you've just now mentioned it? For crying out loud, I was agreeing with you at one point that some truths are hidden, referring to this passage and waiting for you to actually reference it. Are you even reading my posts? You yourself on these threads have been saying to people, "Show me Scripture," but when I refer to a passage while waiting for you to bring it up, I'm avoiding it? Are you even reading my posts??? Looks to me like you've run out of arguments so you're resorting to personal attacks.

Tell you what. Try again. Ask me any direct question on any Scripture and I'll answer it.

I am reading your posts. I took some things for granted.I took for granted you are familiar with these portions of scripture. You do not think I know where they are? Lol....any Cal.knows these verses.lol.
I am not attacking you personally. I am attacking or questioning the system of interpretation that does not allow letting collected texts form a pattern that is God given.
The question at issue is...does scripture interpret scripture....or do we have to import things from outside .....Apache helicopters.....are scorpions, etc

 

[John of Japan]

Thank you.

Gabriel told Daniel:

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. Dan. 9:24​

That prophesies the saving work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Was he mistaken when he prayed :

I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. John 17:4​

No, of course he wasn't mistaken. What's your point?

 

[John of Japan]

I am reading your posts. I took some things for granted.I took for granted you are familiar with these portions of scripture. You do not think I know where they are? Lol....any Cal.knows these verses.lol.
I am not attacking you personally. I am attacking or questioning the system of interpretation that does not allow letting collected texts form a pattern that is God given.
The question at issue is...does scripture interpret scripture....or do we have to import things from outside .....Apache helicopters.....are scorpions, etc

Serious premil scholars do not make the helicopter claim. I just told my eschatology class today not to speculate beyond Scripture. So what's your point?

 

[Calv1]

I understand your viewpoint, but think that AD 70 was not when God totally reject Israel, as he rejected mainly their spiritual leadership! God still has future plans for them, as evidenced by Him fighting for their cause at final war called Armageddon!

Never said He totally rejected Israel, "Not all Israel is Israel", second what battle of Armageddon, you mean the one of Christian Fiction writers? And no there are no future plans, that was invented mid 1800's by a lunatic named John Darby and his "Brethren", see only they had true Revelation from God, and guess what, first time in history he put eh book Rev in the future!. So sorry but 100% of what you said is false.

 

[Covenanter]

No, of course he wasn't mistaken. What's your point?

My point is that 70 weeks was determined for that saving work, which Jesus FINISHED. Scripture records that finished work in Gospels, Acts & Epistles. We don't need an "interpretation system" to understand that.

If you completely separate week 70 from Gabriel's prophecy of Jesus' saving work then you are imposing an interpretation that has no basis in the text, nor linguistic justification.

 

[Calv1]

So, since I believe in and use the grammatical-historical-theological method of interpretation, I'm a crazy cultist or heretic?

The truth is, often cults are started or propagated with "spiritual" interpretations. For example, the JWs thought Jesus was coming back in 1914, but when He didn't come physically they changed their doctrine to say He came "spiritually."

And by the way, Herman Eutics is a guy's name, but hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, Just sayin'.

That's not what I said, re-read it slowly so you might understand what I'm saying so you don't mis-characterize me.

 

[Calv1]

When did Jesus come in the clouds? And in what direction was he moving?

He was asked a simple question & gave a straight answer:

Mat. 26:63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, ‘I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.’
64 ‘You have said so,’ Jesus replied. ‘But I say to all of you: from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’
65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, ‘He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.​

From now on ... Jesus was quoting Daniel -

Dan. 7::13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

He was ascending to claim his Kingdom.

Oh my gosh these people are stuuuuuuupid. Sorry can't do it anymore, they either don't read or don't understand what you say, so "When did Jesus come in the clouds", Oh my goodness, America, the Illiterate, God please shed your grace on thee"

 

[John of Japan]

That's not what I said, re-read it slowly so you might understand what I'm saying so you don't mis-characterize me.

Oh, great, another caustic poster on the BB. Just what we need.

If that's not what you said, please be more careful in what you say, because it certainly read that way.

 

[John of Japan]

Oh my gosh these people are stuuuuuuupid.

What a sweet post, indicating a deep level of maturity.