You have a strange interpretation. Please explain then why on the cross, days later, Jesus said, "It is finished," using the same Greek word as in John 17:4.
I disagree. The text itself divides the 70 into three sections: 7, 62, and 1.
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Spiritual Interpretation....pt4
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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First Covenant to end of the first covenant, big deal! Romans 8:23? It's just talking about the Creation groaning, us waiting for our adoption, not sure I get your point.
Tell you what, just look into preterism, I'm NOT a Preterist, but watch some of their videos, you'll at least see some truths, I wish I could say "Watch this one", because many go too far, but it fits like a glove! I know we always think Rev is in the future, I promise, well modern America is the ONLY PLACE that thinks Rev is future, go anywhere, ask them, they'll say "Happened first century", because they just read it in context, we have read all of the left behind nonsense, or Lindsey, but it is fascinating. Philosopher Bertrum Russel used the Olivet Discourse to, successfully prove to himself and many others that Christ was a false prophet. CS Lewis, whose theology is awful called it "Our most embarrassing chapter", THEY JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, the SON OF MAN CAME IN THE CLOUDS, twice the "LORD CAME IN THE CLOUDS", what happened, destruction each time, first century Christians got it, they built villages out of Jerusalem, it's a lot of fun to study it
I was assuming the following was the, "coming," and , "age," being spoken of and asked what was the beginning of that, "age".
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” NKJV Matt 24:3
NKJV Luke 20:35,36 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. “But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Is not, "this age," in Luke 20:35 the same, "age," as spoken of in Matt 24:3 and did it not begin in Gen 1 and will end with, the adoption, the redemption of the body, the resurrection of the dead as sons of God?
Will that take place at the coming, therefore the presence of the Lord future or did that take place in 70 AD?
After the end of the age will there be marriage and given in marriage?
Presently is there marriage and given in marriage?
I will go as far as to say I believe that finished work took place between the two evenings of that one week, on the mist thereof.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.Dan 9:27
Wednesday relative to us.
Jesus was praying to his Father concerning his life's work & purpose. He had done everything - finished everything he was given to do - next day he would die, & with his dying breath he would tell the world his work was finished.
Yes. And a week is divided into 7 days, when one day ends, the next begins. As the song put it:J said:
"Today will be yesterday tomorrow."
Gabriel said "70 weeks" not, "350 weeks." The first 7 weeks were concerned with the rebuilding, as recorded by Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi.
The 62 weeks are the intertestamental period up to the baptism/anointing of Jesus.
Note that v. begins, "And after the sixty-two weeks..." and from the Gospels we can read the events, & see that as a consequence of the rejection of Messiah, the city & sanctuary will be destroyed - after a period of desolations. Obviously AD 70.
Week 70 is Jesus' saving ministry, during which he was confirming the covenant, & in the midst of which he was cut off.
While there are 3 section to the 70 weeks, there is no suggestion that the 70th week is totally separate from the 69.
Calv1
Active Member
I thought about it today. I do 100% believe what I'm telling you, I'd call myself "Paftial Preterist/Boy have we been duped by the Dispensationalists", I don't want to present ANYTHING FALSE, I cannot misinterpret God's word, yes "Age is Covenant", "Whoever commits the sin against the Holy Spirt not forgiven in THIS AGE OR THE AGE TO COME", this "Age to Come" is the Messianic Age that we are part of.
But Eschatology, sorry I'm out. I said I studied enough, but not enough for me to comment as expert, I will NEVER EVER comment on God's Word unless I'm 1000% that I'm right, taught straight from Scripture, IE Reformed Theology I'll defend to the grave, it's so obviously true, and I'm 98% sure of Partial Preterist position, but until I'm 100% I'd rather shut up!
Thanks, God bless you
The mist? I don't get it.
I don't know what this has to do with the discussion at hand.
You lost me again. What's your point?
Unfortunately for you, history is against you. The count of 69 weeks goes to Christ's crucifixion, unless you date Daniel way after his clearly fulfilled prophecies of Antiochus III & IV, like the liberals do.
Except that it's mentioned separately.
I'm going to try this one again, since Iconoclast has not answered it. What are the Biblical words for "figure of speech"? There are several, and discussing what they are should be a help to all of us.
Calv1
Active Member
Yeah it's something huh? Imagine us down here being dogmatic about a falsehood. I used to be Arminian, not really when I became aware of the debate I was, didn't like what I thought was wrong with Reformed Theology, I fought it, but was always cautious, I see some on here saying "Reformed Theology is a DAMNABLE TEACHING", well I'm CONVINCED, I'll go to my grave CONVINCED about what I've learned, but imagine that person, IMO calling God's teaching "Damnable", I've heard others say "Satanic".
So yeah I study, I do really think most of Rev occurred in first century, I mean 85% of the book is direct OT quotes, but until I put it together, really take time I'm not debating it, the Church has been Amilleneniam. Kind of funny, when I first became Christian was reading Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth", all in a huff, asking my pastor question after question, he said "What difference does it make", I knew what he meant, it's like am I going to get "better" if I think Lord is coming tomorrow, He can "come" right now if I have a heart attack, so I just think we should love God and others to the extent He gives us love, and go on.
The reason I'm so adamant about Reformed Theology is that God's GLORY IS AT STAKE, make a bunch of money, did I do that in my wisdom and free will, or does God deserve the glory? Salvation, am I saved because I'm smarter, "better", in the right place at the right time, why am I saved and my neighbor not? Do I deserve the glory, or the Lord? So that I think very important, even doing a business, "Reformed Revival", it's going to be like CARM, apologetics, BUT 100% VIDEOS, each with controversial titles, to attract people, get them debating, its how I came to the truth, saw a sermon by Piper entitled "Is God for us or for Himself", I couldn't believe the nerve, but to my dismay made sense, and started my journey.
middle of a seven day week
in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Dan. 12.1, 2
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mt. 24.15-22
Jesus was not teaching anything new because Jesus instructed us to read Daniel the prophet for further elucidation concerning his meaning. Here is yet another example of why, comparing scripture with scripture, that your interpretation of Matthew 24-25 is proven false. As I stated in the first thread about this issue, you must totally ignore related passages of scripture in order to hold to your position. I have pointed out many examples of how your Preterist interpretation of numerous prophecies is completely inconsistent when considering all related passages of scripture. I would encourage everyone to read Mt. 24-25 and 1 Th. 4.15-5.10. Your only response was that the coming of the Lord and resurrection of the dead in 1 Th. 4.15, 16 were not concomitant events. Thus, the coming of the Lord is a historical event for you, but the resurrection of the dead awaits fulfillment. With all due respect, you are going to have to do better than that. The scriptures plainly teach that they are inseparable. The resurrection of the dead is closely connected temporally to the great tribulation (Rev. 7.14 τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης ); Literally, "the tribulation the great." I include that because I had a Campbellite argue with me that the phrase "the great tribulation" was not in scripture. Again, you cannot consistently believe in the (future) coming of the Lord and resurrection of the dead. Your, sir, are the one who is refusing to engage in meaningful dialogue because you are so obsessed with the fact that scripture sometimes employs figurative language. Futurists have been believing that since the first century.
In Dan. 7.11 the beast is given to the burning flame, and he is cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 19.20. Even you acknowledge the beast of Daniel is the same as that in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The lake of fire is the second death. This is everlasting punishment. "Fire" is not always figurative in scripture. I wish you could see how placing all these prophecies in the past should drastically affect your theology. That is why I believe Preterism to be very dangerous.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Mt. 24.15-22
Jesus was not teaching anything new because Jesus instructed us to read Daniel the prophet for further elucidation concerning his meaning. Here is yet another example of why, comparing scripture with scripture, that your interpretation of Matthew 24-25 is proven false. As I stated in the first thread about this issue, you must totally ignore related passages of scripture in order to hold to your position. I have pointed out many examples of how your Preterist interpretation of numerous prophecies is completely inconsistent when considering all related passages of scripture. I would encourage everyone to read Mt. 24-25 and 1 Th. 4.15-5.10. Your only response was that the coming of the Lord and resurrection of the dead in 1 Th. 4.15, 16 were not concomitant events. Thus, the coming of the Lord is a historical event for you, but the resurrection of the dead awaits fulfillment. With all due respect, you are going to have to do better than that. The scriptures plainly teach that they are inseparable. The resurrection of the dead is closely connected temporally to the great tribulation (Rev. 7.14 τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης ); Literally, "the tribulation the great." I include that because I had a Campbellite argue with me that the phrase "the great tribulation" was not in scripture. Again, you cannot consistently believe in the (future) coming of the Lord and resurrection of the dead. Your, sir, are the one who is refusing to engage in meaningful dialogue because you are so obsessed with the fact that scripture sometimes employs figurative language. Futurists have been believing that since the first century.
In Dan. 7.11 the beast is given to the burning flame, and he is cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 19.20. Even you acknowledge the beast of Daniel is the same as that in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The lake of fire is the second death. This is everlasting punishment. "Fire" is not always figurative in scripture. I wish you could see how placing all these prophecies in the past should drastically affect your theology. That is why I believe Preterism to be very dangerous.
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But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. -1 Th. 5.4
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; -2 Th. 1.8,9
Paul was writing to the church of the Thessalonians. Does anyone else see the problem with associating the fulfillment of these with the destruction of Jerusalem? If you do not, I have included a map.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; -2 Th. 1.8,9
Paul was writing to the church of the Thessalonians. Does anyone else see the problem with associating the fulfillment of these with the destruction of Jerusalem? If you do not, I have included a map.
What I thought was straightforward is becoming complex. You don't seem to understand the points I make in reply to your comments.
My main point is that Gabriel responded to Daniel's prayer at the conclusion of the 70 years exile with a prophecy that 70 weeks were determined concerning the saving work of Messiah. That 70 weeks takes to the mid 30s AD.
Jesus' prophesied saving work was FINISHED as he prays to his Father & shouts from the cross.
The 70 weeks ended with the saving Gospel being proclaimed from the day of Pentecost for about 3 years until the Jews rejected the Gospel & Gentiles were welcomed into the Kingdom.
Whatever we believe about a future tribulation, that has nothing to with the prophesied 70 weeks. While I consider from the text that the 69th week takes us to Jesus' baptism & anointing, rather than Jesus' death but those 3 years shouldn't divert us from the main point - that 70 weeks should be continuous, ending in the 30s.
The 70 weeks, 490 years, is a period of time, ending mid 30s, which will see Messiah undertaking the saving work prophesied in v. 24. By his atoning death. v. 26. During those 490 years many things happened, beginning with the rebuilding. The intertestamental period could have been detailed as a series of sections to the 490 years, but that is not the focus of the prophecy. Messiah is.
Jesus completes his saving work in the midst of week 70 when he ended the sacrifice & offering by his own sacrifice. The Jews continuing the rituals doesn't affect that great truth.
And Jesus confirmed the covenant by his perfect fulfilment of every requirement, & establish a new & everlasting covenant in his blood.
As Peter declares:
I believe the inspired history. I'm not concerned with the Jewish calender nor the liberals, but with the force of the prophecy. 70 weeks, 490 years ending after Jesus' FINISHED saving work, in the 30s AD.
The prophecy does describe the destruction, & Jesus mentions that in his Olivet prophecy. Compary Matthew & Luke:
Some of the events after 69 weeks (the 62 weeks) occurred after the 70th week as a consequence of the rejection & cutting off of Messiah - God graciously allowed 40 years for repentance.
Again whatever you believe about dispensations, future tribulations etc, CANNOT change the simple obvious truth that a period of 70 weeks (490 years) is continuous, & ended in the 30s AD.
My main point is that Gabriel responded to Daniel's prayer at the conclusion of the 70 years exile with a prophecy that 70 weeks were determined concerning the saving work of Messiah. That 70 weeks takes to the mid 30s AD.
Jesus' prophesied saving work was FINISHED as he prays to his Father & shouts from the cross.
The 70 weeks ended with the saving Gospel being proclaimed from the day of Pentecost for about 3 years until the Jews rejected the Gospel & Gentiles were welcomed into the Kingdom.
Whatever we believe about a future tribulation, that has nothing to with the prophesied 70 weeks. While I consider from the text that the 69th week takes us to Jesus' baptism & anointing, rather than Jesus' death but those 3 years shouldn't divert us from the main point - that 70 weeks should be continuous, ending in the 30s.
How can it be strange that immediately before his crucifixion, Jesus reports to his Father "I have finished" & with his dying breath shouts from the cross, "FINISHED!" ?
I don't understand your failure to understand. I've tried to keep it simple.
The 70 weeks, 490 years, is a period of time, ending mid 30s, which will see Messiah undertaking the saving work prophesied in v. 24. By his atoning death. v. 26. During those 490 years many things happened, beginning with the rebuilding. The intertestamental period could have been detailed as a series of sections to the 490 years, but that is not the focus of the prophecy. Messiah is.
Jesus completes his saving work in the midst of week 70 when he ended the sacrifice & offering by his own sacrifice. The Jews continuing the rituals doesn't affect that great truth.
And Jesus confirmed the covenant by his perfect fulfilment of every requirement, & establish a new & everlasting covenant in his blood.
As Peter declares:
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.” Acts 3.
John of Japan said:
I believe the inspired history. I'm not concerned with the Jewish calender nor the liberals, but with the force of the prophecy. 70 weeks, 490 years ending after Jesus' FINISHED saving work, in the 30s AD.
The prophecy does describe the destruction, & Jesus mentions that in his Olivet prophecy. Compary Matthew & Luke:
Mat. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Dan. 9:27 .....And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Dan. 9:27 .....And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Some of the events after 69 weeks (the 62 weeks) occurred after the 70th week as a consequence of the rejection & cutting off of Messiah - God graciously allowed 40 years for repentance.
Again whatever you believe about dispensations, future tribulations etc, CANNOT change the simple obvious truth that a period of 70 weeks (490 years) is continuous, & ended in the 30s AD.
Aha. The midst. With no mist. Thanks.
What's with all the red? Are you trying to make me see red? Anyway....
I would understand your points if your logic held together. It doesn't.
So then you don't believe in grammatical-historical interpretation, is that correct or not? Because the literal history of Daniel's prophecies being fulfilled is important.
Of course. And your point is what, in regards to the OP?
That is historically wrong. The 69 weeks ended with Christ's crucifixion. That leaves the last week, mentioned separate in Daniel. Historically, there is no one week period after the cross that fits it, certainly not the AD 70 date.
So you say. And I disagree.
That's not strange. What I can't figure out is your interpretation.
Your view simply doesn't hold together logically. I haven't even figured out from your posts if you're a partial or full preterist. I really don't mean to be offensive here, but I've graded many student papers in my 30 years teaching in two countries, so I should be able to figure out the logic of a position.
So then, to repeat myself, if you don't care whether or not the Jewish week was 30 days, than you do not follow grammatical-historical interpretation. Is that correct? I don't want to misrepresent you.
And once again, I disagree. And you haven't proved your point, but merely pontificated, expecting agreement without proof.
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Hogwash. I wish you could see the idolatrous Israel worshipping, war mongering Zionism that placing all these prophecies (plainly presented as IMMINENT to that generation) in the future has produced. Preterism is benign compared to the misery and grief brought about by the political clout (in the mightiest nation on earth) of the CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS.
You don't know what you're talking about. Christian Zionism is dangerous. Preterism is benign.
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The ECF held on the whole though to pre mil, and I am not speaking to a rapture of the church, just that God does state that right before the Messiah returns, Israel will have the time of Jacobs Folly/troubles, preparing them to meet their returning God!
Jn1:51
Jn2:19
Jn3:3,14
Jn4:14,21-24,34
Jn6: 33,53-58,62-66
Jn7:37-38
Jn9:4
Jn2:19
Jn3:3,14
Jn4:14,21-24,34
Jn6: 33,53-58,62-66
Jn7:37-38
Jn9:4
This has nothing to do with the issue.Do you have a bible verse that indicates the time of Jacob's trouble is past 70ad?
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