Strange Things the Holy Spirit Cannot Do….

[Pastor Larry]

I say that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me the truth of Romans 8:1 that it should not contain the last phrase found in the KJV. The Spirit and the Word agree.

Are you saying that the Spirit is lying to me?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: But let's return to the issue and let me repeat what I asked earlier:

I say that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me the truth of Romans 8:1 that it should not contain the last phrase found in the KJV.

How do you respond?

HP: I thought I had made myself clear on that point earlier, but I will say it again. My response would be Larry, I respectfully disagree with you but that is between you and your God. I believe you have been influenced wrongly by modern translators and so-called experts, and the pie-in- the- sky notion of older and better manuscripts, but for now, apart from the Spirit revealing other truth to one of our hearts there will be no agreement on this issue in this world.

God certainly will judge us, not only for what we believe but to the way we treat others that disagree with us, and for every idle word spoken. We will both have our day in His court. God’s Word to both of us, is, prepare to meet our God.

In the meantime I will continue to share from my heart what I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, and hold as firm in my conviction as much as my own salvation, that Roman’s chapter 8 verse 1 was verbally inspired by God to read;
Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[tamborine lady]

It is hard to imagine you don't understand what I have already said. It was clear.

Perhaps this is part of the problem both in this conversation, as well as with the Bible: You don't appear to be paying attention to what is said.

Bad doctrine and bad conversations are the result of people who don't read closely and pay attention to understand.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Pastor Larry, now I understand why you don't get it!

Tam

 

[Pastor Larry]

HP: I thought I had made myself clear on that point earlier, but I will say it again. My response would be Larry, I respectfully disagree with you but that is between you and your God.

So you are willing to call the Holy Spirit a liar?

In the meantime I will continue to share from my heart what I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, and hold as firm in my conviction as much as my own salvation, that Roman’s chapter 8 verse 1 was verbally inspired by God to read;
Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But if you are wrong, you are a false teacher, and if you blame it on the Spirit, you have made him a false teacher.

Do you not see the seriousness of that?

I have no problem with you believing it should be there. But attributing that to some sort of information from the Spirit goes beyond the Scriptures, and should not be said.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Pastor Larry, now I understand why you don't get it!

Okay, I'll bite. What do you now understand?

 

[DHK]

Quote:
TL: The Holy Spirit does speak to all of us daily. Some choose to ignore Him, but He is speaking never the less.


HP: Tell us more about just what you are agreeing to. What does the Holy Spirit speak to you daily DHK? Can you give us Scriptures that would tell us specifically that such knowledge is indeed granted by the Holy Spirit? Is He limited to speaking to you only in accordance to the truth He has in the past, or is He free to share with you His Word? If not why not. If He cannot share with us the actual words in His Word, how can you be certain that the ones you would point to in Scripture are in actuality the truth??

Pastor Larry referred to illumination earlier. Apparently you did not understand him or did not pay attention. I actually referred to illumination before he did. You ignored my post as well when I brought that subject up. There are three concepts or teachings which are imperative for every believer to understand:
inspiration,
preservation, and
illumination.

God does not inspire translations such as the KJV or any of the modern translations. No translation is inspired. Remember that though the KJV is a good translation, it is not inspired. Only the original MSS, the very documents that the prophets of the OT, and the Apostles of the NT wrote are inspired. We do not have those documents, those MSS today.

Preservation: God has promised to preserve His Word. We know that his Word is preserved, but God chose not to tell us how he preserved His Word. Some believe it was through the TR, and some believe it was through the Critical Text. There are over 5,000 MSS today, extant, of the NT. All of this is a matter of textual criticism and really should be discussed in the versions forum, not here.

Illumination: The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind of the believer of the truth of God's Word as to what it means, as opposed to the unbeliever who has trouble understanding it. It is a living book. It speaks to us. God speaks to us through His Word, by the Holy Spirit. This is what I stated. This is what illumination is. Scripture?

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--This verse in particular tell us that we have received the Holy Spirit for the purpose of understanding the Bible, the things that are freely given to us by God. This is illumination. Look at the contrast here:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--The natural (or unsaved man) does not receive or understand the things of the Spirit of God (the Bible). It is foolishness to him. He is spiritually discerned.

God's Word Translation translates the last half of that verse this way:
"He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them."
--God gives the Holy Spirit to the believer that he might understand the Word of God. That is illumination.
It has nothing to do with textual criticism; it has to do with the understanding of the Word of God!

No one is speaking about extra biblical revelation here. That is a paper duck, and a lame one at that. We are speaking directly concerning THE WORD OF GOD and if God can in fact reveal THE WORD OF GOD to ones heart as He intended it to be written down. If not why not? If not, why is that not specifically going beyond Scripture in limiting God to what He can and cannot reveal to man’s heart?

Do you find the words: Textus Receptus, Majority Text, Byzantine Text, Stephanus, Critical Text, Sinaiaticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrian Text, Westcott and Hort, etc. in the Bible? No. This is all extra-biblical. Yes you are speaking of extra-biblical revelation. All textual criticism is extra-biblical revelation.

I

would think that IF ANYTHING, God would be in the business of revealing to man’s heart the truth of His Word.

He is. The TR vs. Critical Text has no part in that "the truth of His Word."

That certainly would be within the confines of ‘Scripture itself’ would it not? Nothing ‘extra biblical’ about that is there/

Concerning "textual criticism," yes, every thing about it is extra-biblical.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: So you are willing to call the Holy Spirit a liar?

HP: That remark in actuality does not even merit a response. Just the same I will placate you with this answer. No. It is not the Holy Spirit that is confused, but one of us.
Quote:
HP: In the meantime I will continue to share from my heart what I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, and hold as firm in my conviction as much as my own salvation, that Roman’s chapter 8 verse 1 was verbally inspired by God to read;
Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

PL: But if you are wrong, you are a false teacher, and if you blame it on the Spirit, you have made him a false teacher.

Do you not see the seriousness of that?

HP: Absolutely I do. Do you?

PL: I have no problem with you believing it should be there. But attributing that to some sort of information from the Spirit goes beyond the Scriptures, and should not be said.

HP: I stand firmly upon the words I have spoken. All I have sated is that the Spirit of God testifies to the truth of His own Words. In DHK’s words, (I believe it was DHK that asked such a question) if that is not true are you suggesting that the Holy Spirit is “schizophrenic?”

What is amazing to me is that while you throw stones at me for what I say, you make clear remarks that indicate that some of the translators simply added those words. Are you claiming that the Word of God is merely the work of men writing what they so desire, or is it verbally inspired? At some point in time intellectually honesty demands that you are going to have to come to grips with reality. Reality says that they all cannot be the Words of God as verbally inspired or they would say the same things. They do not say the same things in different translations, so some of them must of necessity not be the words as God verbally inspired them. Put your truth in whatever translation you so desire, but as for me, my mind is made up as testified to my heart by the Holy Spirit, that Romans 8:1 reads correctly as follows. “Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What truth does the Holy Spirit bear witness to your heart, or is the truth of Word of God simply up for grabs?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Yes you are speaking of extra-biblical revelation. All textual criticism is extra-biblical revelation.

HP: Do you realize what you are implying? If translations are extra biblical revelation, and no one can rightfully claim that, then we do not have the Word of God today. All we have is some prohibited extra-biblical revelation. Shall we just go ahead and accuse the translators in mass of heresy, blasphemy, etc, as has been laid at my feet for simply stating that the Spirit testifies to my spirit that Romans 8:1 is written as verbally inspired in the KJV? If not why not?

 

[DHK]

What truth does the Holy Spirit bear witness to your heart, or is the truth of Word of God simply up for grabs?

The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God.
As long as you jerk that Scripture out of context it is akin to blasphemy. You do not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit inferring that Pastor Larry does not have the Spirit or is not saved.

Attacks on salvation, especially a moderator's, are grounds for banning. Be careful where you tread when you keep making these unwarranted accusations.

Here is what the Bible says about "The Holy Spirit bearing witness." It is the only place in the Bible where such phraseology is found.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[DHK]

HP: Do you realize what you are implying? If translations are extra biblical revelation, and no one can rightfully claim that, then we do not have the Word of God today. All we have is some prohibited extra-biblical revelation. Shall we just go ahead and accuse the translators in mass of heresy, blasphemy, etc, as has been laid at my feet for simply stating that the Spirit testifies to my spirit that Romans 8:1 is written as verbally inspired in the KJV? If not why not?

Because the KJV is not the inspired Word of God!
It is a translation!
Translations are not inspired; are not infallible; do have mistakes; are fallible; cannot accurately translate from one language to another.

Only the original documents were inspired and we don't have them any longer.

 

[Pastor Larry]

That remark in actuality does not even merit a response.

This is the core of the issue. If you claim one thing from the Spirit and I claim the other, then the Holy Spirit must be lying to one of us. Or one of us misunderstands (or both of us). But you have no way of knowing. You may have believed a lie, but you are taking such a dogmatic stand without merit.

HP: Absolutely I do. Do you?

That's the only reason I have posted on this topic.

What is amazing to me is that while you throw stones at me for what I say, you make clear remarks that indicate that some of the translators simply added those words.

I made no such claim. The words are in the original language, and therefore would have been added by scribes or copyists, not translators.

Are you claiming that the Word of God is merely the work of men writing what they so desire, or is it verbally inspired?

It is verbally inspired, but you are confusing some things. Copying and translating is not the product of verbal inspiration or miraculous intervention.

At some point in time intellectually honesty demands that you are going to have to come to grips with reality.

I think you are the one out of touch with reality here.

Reality says that they all cannot be the Words of God as verbally inspired or they would say the same things.

No, you don't understand inspiration. Inspiration applies to the original autographa, not to copies or translations. It is possible (in fact demonstrable) that words were added and deleted to copies of the text over the years.

They do not say the same things in different translations, so some of them must of necessity not be the words as God verbally inspired them.

This is true. That's the point. You are claiming the Holy Spirit has confirmed something to you when it might not even be verbally inspired to begin with.

What truth does the Holy Spirit bear witness to your heart, or is the truth of Word of God simply up for grabs?

Theologically, the inner testimony of the Spirit deals with the conviction that the Bible is the Word of God. Regeneration or illumination opens the spiritual eyes to bring spiritual understanding. That does not apply to textual variants, grammer, words, etc. Those are a completely different domain.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: This is the core of the issue. If you claim one thing from the Spirit and I claim the other, then the Holy Spirit must be lying to one of us. Or one of us misunderstands (or both of us). But you have no way of knowing. You may have believed a lie, but you are taking such a dogmatic stand without merit.

HP: To the contrary Larry. My salvation is based on the Word of God and if I can not be certain as to what it says concerning condemnation then I can have no certain hope. One had better be dogmatic in that upon which their hope lies is at stake. Certainly our hope lies not only in the Word of God but in the Spirit’s testimony to our own heart and life as well, but I believe you get what I am saying.

You sound to me like those that have so many questions as to whether of not any war could be just that they arrive at the conclusion no one can conduct a just war, or no one can be certain that the war they are engaged in is indeed just. Yes we do have ways of knowing but answers may not come easy. I can indeed know that the Word of God is true and verbally inspired, and if you cannot, seek God to show you His Word as He verbally inspired it. Lu 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

If I have believed a lie, God is able to straighten me out. I do not believe that to be the case. I have faith that that is not the case. As I stated, I am as certain of the truth of Romans 8:1 as I am of anything, including my own salvation. If you cannot say that about what you believe or the version you are trusting in, I would say that you need to settle the issue with God’s help. He is able and willing to do just that. How can you set yourself up to be a teacher of the Word if you feel as DHK does that all translations are merely ‘extra biblical revelation?’ ….or do you disagree with DHK on that? If I could not stand in faith that the words I were quoting were in fact the verbally inspired Words of God, I would not teach or debate period.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

An interesting thought just occurred to me. It appears as if though my faith in the Scriptures is not sound evidence for some. If faith is not good enough for establishing the truth of Scripture, how is ‘faith alone’ good enough to establish ones salvation? If we cannot have faith in that the Words of God we are reading are in fact the verbally inspired Words of God, how can we have faith that the ‘extra biblical revelation’ of the translators (words of DHK) can be trusted as the primary source of our ones faith alone, based on such extra biblical revelation or interpretation of mere men? Is it sheer dogmatism apart from actual facts (the facts being hidden from us due to the fact that all we have is the claimed extra biblical revelation of mere men according to DHK) to believe anything God’s Word says, including dogmas like ‘faith alone?’

 

[Pastor Larry]

To the contrary Larry. My salvation is based on the Word of God and if I can not be certain as to what it says concerning condemnation then I can have no certain hope.

That's hardly to the contrary. What is at stake here is not certainty about the Bible's teaching on condemnation. If Romans 8:1 reads as most believe it does in the modern versions, the teaching on condemnation is clear because there is no dispute about vv. 2-4, or many other passages about condemnation.

You sound to me like those that have so many questions as to whether of not any war could be just that they arrive at the conclusion no one can conduct a just war, or no one can be certain that the war they are engaged in is indeed just.

If you think I sound like that, you haven't heard much from me. But that is really off topic here.

I can indeed know that the Word of God is true and verbally inspired, and if you cannot, seek God to show you His Word as He verbally inspired it.

I agree. The truth and inspiration of the Bible is not under debate here. The means of the Spirit's work is what is being debated.

I have faith that that is not the case.

Faith won't make you right. Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.

As I stated, I am as certain of the truth of Romans 8:1 as I am of anything, including my own salvation.

As am I. Again, remember the truth of Romans 8:1 (or any other verse) is not under discussion here.

How can you set yourself up to be a teacher of the Word if you feel as DHK does that all translations are merely ‘extra biblical revelation?’ ….or do you disagree with DHK on that?

I don't think they are extra-biblical "revelation." Revelation has a specific meaning and it doesn't apply here. They are certainly extra-biblical in the sense that copies and translations do not partake of inspiration. In order to be a teacher of the Word, you must know this. If you don't know it, then you can't teach the Word truly.

If I could not stand in faith that the words I were quoting were in fact the verbally inspired Words of God, I would not teach or debate period.

Me either. Again, that's not really the debate here.

You are confusing many issues.

 

[DHK]

HP,
Here is something for you to think about.
From what you have written you believe that the KJV is "the inspired Word of God," correct?
Is then the corollary of that true: that the modern versions are not inspired?
For example, is the NIV, translated from the Critical Text, the "inspired" Word of God?

Now consider: When the Wycliffe Bible translators and those who went forth from the British Foreign Bible Society into the various nations of the world they used the Critical Text. Most of the nations of this world (more than 90% of them) have a Bible that is translated from the Critical Text, much like the ASV. For most of this world, then are you willing to say that they do not have the Word of God simply because it is not translated from the text that you favor? Does 90% of the world no longer have the Word of God because it is not "KJV-equivalent"?

Or would a person go and have to teach those nations first Shakespearean English, that they might read the KJV because it alone is the inspired Word of God? Remember that many of those nations have a high illiteracy rate in their own languages, much less in knowing English. Do you think you should force missionaries to teach the language of the KJV to all nations that they may be able to read "the inspired Word of God"? Or are their Bibles, translated from the Critical Text, also the Word of God?
What is your position HP?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: Faith won't make you right. Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.

HP: I cannot believe my ears. So much for trust in faith and faith alone. Pastor Larry concludes you may have “strong faith’ in wrong beliefs. I wonder just how Pastor Larry is going to bolster one assurance of salvation that we have been drilled that it is by faith and faith alone when he admits that “PL: FAITH WON”T MAKE YOU RIGHT.”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is it possible that Pastor Larry has been studying James recently? Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

double post. sorry

 

[Pastor Larry]

I cannot believe my ears. So much for trust in faith and faith alone.

Again, you are confused. This has nothing to do with faith alone.

Pastor Larry concludes you may have “strong faith’ in wrong beliefs.

Ever hear of a Muslim? Do you think they have strong faith? Do you think they are right? What about Hindus? They have very strong faith. Do you think they are saved? Even atheists have very strong faith. Do you think they are right?

There are all kinds of strong faith. But you can completely believe something that is completely false. Belief does not make something true, not even strong belief.

I wonder just how Pastor Larry is going to bolster one assurance of salvation that we have been drilled that it is faith and faith alone when he admits that “PL: FAITH WON”T MAKE YOU RIGHT.”

Assurance of salvation is based on Jesus, not on my faith. My faith is weak, but Jesus is the one who saves.

Again, HP, you are simply very very confused. This has nothing to do with faith alone.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Is it possible that Pastor Larry has been studying James recently? Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Not recently, but it is a great passage on what it means to have a living faith.