Study 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[Silverhair]

But you are arguing in circles. You already believe the doctrines are false, based on pagan philosophy, so of course you will say that Augustine must have brought them in from paganism. Calvin backs up his teachings from Scripture, as do all the confessions of faith based on those doctrines (for example the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession).

It is not a question of whether augustine brought those pagan views into the church, it is historical fact.

You are denying history as you do not like what is shows you.

I rejected the DoG/TULIP before I knew that auguistine brought pagan views into the church.

The DoG/TULIP do not align with the character of God but rather distort it.

 

[David Lamb]

It is not a question of whether augustine brought those pagan views into the church, it is historical fact.

You are denying history as you do not like what is shows you.

And you seem to be denying the fact that the godly men who formulated the Calvinistic confessions of faith were careful to ensure that everything included was backed up with Scripture, not with pagan philosophy.

 

[Silverhair]

And you seem to be denying the fact that the godly men who formulated the Calvinistic confessions of faith were careful to ensure that everything included was backed up with Scripture, not with pagan philosophy.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that those men started with a calvinist view and then looked for scripture that they thought supported that view.

They did just what the cults do today, pulled verses out of context or misapplied them.

One is to get their doctrine from scripture not read it into scripture.

 

[David Lamb]

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that those men started with a calvinist view and then looked for scripture that they thought supported that view.

They did just what the cults do today, pulled verses out of context or misapplied them.

One is to get their doctrine from scripture not read it into scripture.

You seem to be claiming an intimate knowledge of "those men." How else could you know with such apparent certainty that they "started with a Calvinist view and then looked for scripture that they thought supported that view?"

 

[Van]

Here is a standard Calvinist claim, every tenet of Calvinism is backed up with scripture.

They say none of the lost ever seek after God, but back it up by saying those seeking God were not really seeking God, or in other words, they back up their false doctrines from rewritten verses.

Scripture has a great many examples of lost people seeking God, seeking eternal life, seeking the narrow door and so forth and so on.

They rewrite 1 Cor. 2:14 to say the natural person cannot understand ANY OF the things of the Spirit of God. I can go on and on.

They seem ruled by pride because they ignore all the evidence pretending to not grasp the biblical view.

 

[Silverhair]

You seem to be claiming an intimate knowledge of "those men." How else could you know with such apparent certainty that they "started with a Calvinist view and then looked for scripture that they thought supported that view?"

Are you telling me that they became calvinists after writing the confession?

Remember it is a confession of their calvinist understanding of scripture.

 

[David Lamb]

Are you telling me that they became calvinists after writing the confession?

Remember it is a confession of their calvinist understanding of scripture.

No I am not saying that. I am saying that they believed the doctrines of grace because they found them in the Scriptures, which is why, when they came to formulate the confessions of faith, they backed up every statement with Scripture, not with pagan philosophy, or even by quoting Augustine.

 

[Silverhair]

No I am not saying that. I am saying that they believed the doctrines of grace because they found them in the Scriptures, which is why, when they came to formulate the confessions of faith, they backed up every statement with Scripture, not with pagan philosophy, or even by quoting Augustine.

But there in lays the problem David, the calvinist views are based on what augustine said and which calvin carried forward. We know that augustine was influenced by those pagan philosophies and thus we see those same pagan philosophies in calvinism.

So when they wrote their confession they looked for scriptures that they thought supported those same philosophies. Calvin himself said that his understanding of scripture could be traced right back to augustine. Calvin references augustine over 70 times in his institutes.

Calvin stated, "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
(Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.63)

 

[Brightfame52]

They say none of the lost ever seek after God,

It's scripture Rom 3:11

 

[Brightfame52]

They rewrite 1 Cor. 2:14 to say the natural person cannot understand ANY OF the things of the Spirit of God. I can go on and on

That's scripture, the things of the Spirit are foolishness to the natural man. And that includes the Gospel in the preceding context 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Van]

On and on this poster simply ignores scripture, Luke 13:24 where the lost DO seek God!

Calvinism rewrites the things of the Spirit as "all the things of the Spirit." Yet everyone should realize from all the verses where the lost seek God, some of the lost can understand the spiritual milk things of the Spirit. Not Soil #1, but Soils 2, 3 and 4.

Who are the persons that see the gospel as foolishness." Those who are perishing. They either have already a hardened heart, like those described as Soil #1 in Matthew 13, or have rejected the gospel, having responded to it, indicating understanding. See these verses: 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15, 2 Corinthians 4:3 and 2 Thessalonians 2:10. They had not accepted the love of Christ.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 Grammatical Breakdown:
We should always give thanks to God for you as beloved by the Lord.
Subject, = We; Verb = should give thanks, direct object = God; indirect object = for you the beloved.
We should give thanks to God for you as our siblings in Christ!

Why?

Because God has chosen you. Subject = God; Verb = has chosen; direct object = you.
The remaining phrases are indirect objects describing aspects of the action upon the recipient.

When was the action of choosing performed? From the beginning of the New Covenant
What was the purpose of the action? For salvation
What were the instrumental factors? Election by means of transferring the person from the realm of darkness into Christ. Basis of the choice was God crediting the faith of the individual as righteousness.

Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy.

 

[Brightfame52]

On and on this poster simply ignores scripture, Luke 13:24 where the lost DO seek God!

None seek after God Romans 3:11

 

[Van]

None seek after God Romans 3:11

So none seek God when sinning or all the time is what the verse means, and to claim it means Jesus is a liar is blasphemy.
He said many seek the narrow door...

This is all they have folks, denial and diversion.

 

[Brightfame52]

So none seek God when sinning or all the time is what the verse means, and to claim it means Jesus is a liar is blasphemy.
He said many seek the narrow door...

This is all they have folks, denial and diversion.

Non-seek after God Romans 3:11 none understand God Romans 3:11 that's by nature.

 

[Van]

Non-seek after God Romans 3:11 none understand God Romans 3:11 that's by nature.

So none seek God when sinning or all the time is what the verse means, and to claim it means Jesus is a liar is blasphemy.
He said many seek the narrow door...

This is all they have folks, denial and diversion.

 

[Brightfame52]

So none seek God when sinning or all the time is what the verse means, and to claim it means Jesus is a liar is blasphemy.
He said many seek the narrow door...

This is all they have folks, denial and diversion.

Here is scripture proof Rom 3:11

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think you are misunderstanding the timeline of Luke 13:24ff. Look at verse 24 in the light of verse 25, and you will hopefully get the idea.
In fact our Lord promises that everyone who seeks, finds etc. (Matt. 7:7-11). The only qualification is that the verbs are in the Present tense, which in Greek usually denotes continuity. 'Everyone who keeps on seeking, finds.'

No one seeks God at any time is the Calvinist take on Romans 3:11, rather than no one seeks all the time or when they are sinning.

It is indeed the Calvinist take on Romans 3:11, and it is also the Biblical one. Had the Holy Spirit wished the verse to mean that no one seeks God excepting sometimes, He would have said so.

The Lost should strive to accomplish entry through Christ for many will seek in the future and not be able. The idea is the Lost have the opportunity now, but not necessarily in the future, they could physically die, or their heart could be hardened. No sane person can fit the total inability to ever seek after God with the verse!

The lost should indeed strive to enter the kingdom, but as Romans 3:11 says, they do not until it's too late. At the time of Noah, the door of the ark was wide open whilst all the animals went in. Anyone could have entered, until the time when the animals had all gine in, 'and the LORD shut Noah in' (Genesis 7:16). Moreover, Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and presumably warned the people of the judgement to come. But no one went in except Noah and his family. Then it began to rain and the fountains of the great deep broke up, and no doubt many people rushed to the ark and hammered on the doors until their knuckles were bleeding, but the door did not open
Likewise, the doors of heaven are wide open today, but no one enters save those whose hearts God opens as He did Noah's (Heb. 11:7). But 'when once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door' (Luke 13:25); when the Lord Jesus returns, many folk are going to bang on the door, 'saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us!"' But it will all be too late.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It is not a question of whether augustine brought those pagan views into the church, it is historical fact.

It is historic fact except that the views were there before Augustine, and they are not pagan. Other than that, you are entirely correct.

 

[Silverhair]

It is historic fact except that the views were there before Augustine, and they are not pagan. Other than that, you are entirely correct.

What do you base your claim on Martin?