Submit = Obey?

[Marcia]

Posted by Timtoolman:
But Marcia can you submit without obeying. I am really not saying they are the same, just that God tells us there are authorities and we are under them. Can we use the same excuse as women do to disobey those authorities? I am not trying to say the relationships are the same but the principles of obeying God's word are. Sorry if I gave that impression.
For instance if I do tell my son to stop beating on the car with a hammer and I yell it out of anger, should my son stop to discern that I am not right cause I responded out of anger. Then continue to do beat the car? Or should He obey? Again can you submit without obeying?

I think you are missing the point. You are bringing up your son here as if that's equal to the relationship with your wife. Do you see the father-child relationship the same as the husband-wife relationship?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
"As to the Lord" does not mean a wife can submit when she thinks her husband is right. It means he stands in the Lord's place as her authority and she is to submit to him in the same way she is to submit to the Lord. A little broader look at Scripture makes that very obvious. Verse 24 says, "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." "Everything" is pretty self-explanatory (unless you want to go to the Greek to prove that it doesn't mean what it says.) Does submission equal obedience?

Her husband is not Christ nor God. She is obligated not to obey him when he is clearly in violation of scripture. She may submit by her attitude but making it clear that she will not obey him.

For anyone to think that she is obligated to obey her husband as the same plane as Christ is to equate him with Christ. There is no close comparison.

In Mt. 8:8,9 clearly the centurion understood the role of authority and submission.

Mt. 8:8,9, "But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, `Go!' and he goes, and to another, `Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this!' and he does it."

Many years ago a man I knew joined a cult group and tried to use the same passages with his wife as those men who somehow think their wives are to submit themselves at any cost.

As to the Lord means submitting herself as to what God would want. God never wants submission and sin to mix.

Those who would assume the wife should submit at any cost I assume would also take all things in Col. 3:20 to mean everything.

Col. 3:20, “ Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord.”

I would like to give a personal example. When I was younger there were times when my dad and I would go to a store. Instead of wanting to pay for something he would hand the item to me and tell me to put it in my pocket. In effect he was telling me to steal. Each time I refused he would often continue to try and persuade me again. After trying to persuade after my refusal again he would take it and pay for it.

Now for those who would take the issue of “all things” as absolute obedience, should I have submitted to my dad and agreed to steal from the store? If you say “all things” or "as to the Lord" means an absolute submission then you must agree that I should have stolen the items from the store. Is it an absolute submission or a conditional submission? Can’t have it both ways. So which is it?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
"As unto the Lord" does not mean what you say. It means you submit as if he were the Lord. When did Sarah obey Abraham? Twice that we have in Scripture. Both times he told her to lie, and God uses her as an example of a goldy wife.

So her godliness was exhibited in her lie?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PastorGreg:
"As unto the Lord" does not mean what you say. It means you submit as if he were the Lord. When did Sarah obey Abraham? Twice that we have in Scripture. Both times he told her to lie, and God uses her as an example of a goldy wife.

So her godliness was exhibited in her lie? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe anyone said that a woman should sin in order to obey her husband. But as was pointed out, assuming it was a lie, God did not rebuke Sarah for obeying Abraham and saying she was his sister. I would submit (hahah) one item for you to ponder.

Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

If a man is to be the head of his wife, as Christ is the head of the church, and is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, why should it not be that the man is responsible for the sins of the wife, if she in good faith submits to her husband in everything? Not that I am saying she should knowingly sin, but if she did because her husband told her to do something, would not the husband be held accountable? Would part of loving her like Christ loved the church be taking her sins on himself? What is verse 23 implying about the saviour of the body? Yes, Christ is the saviour of the church, so how does that relate to what a man is to his wife?

 

[Elnora]

Are you saying that husband is now the wifes savior? I hope I misunderstood that. The Husband submits to Christ, as he submits to Christ, the wife submits to the husband as to the Lord, the children submit to the parents as they submit to Christ, See the order here.

This isn't that hard. Do you not think that if a husband refuses to submit to Christ then it makes sense that as he rebels against the head, Christ. The family will follow that example.

 

[James_Newman]

I'm just asking a question, regarding accountability. If I tell my wife to do something, maybe a gray area something that she is unsure of, and she does it in faith that God will reward her for submitting to her husband, who is going to be accountable for what she does?

 

[dianetavegia]

According to scripture, YOU would be accountable James.

In a good Christian marriage, the wife can express her concern about a 'gray area' and a god fearing man would then pray and seek counsel before having his wife do something questionable.

 

[dianetavegia]

Our spouse WILL take blame!

Numbers 30: 1 And Moses said to the heads of the tribes of the children of Israel, This is the order of the Lord. 2 When a man takes an oath to the Lord, or gives an undertaking having the force of an oath, let him not go back from his word, but let him do whatever he has said he will do.

3 If a woman, being young and under the authority of her father, takes an oath to the Lord or gives an undertaking; 4 If her father, hearing of her oath or the undertaking she has given, says nothing to her, then all her oaths and every undertaking she has given will have force. 5 But if her father, hearing of it, makes her take back her word, then the oaths or the undertakings she has given will have no force; and she will have forgiveness from the Lord, because her oath was broken by her father. 6 And if she is married to a husband at the time when she is under an oath or an undertaking given without thought; 7 If her husband, hearing of it, says nothing to her at the time, then the oaths she made and the undertakings she gave will have force. 8 But if her husband, hearing of it, makes her take it back, then the oath she made and the undertaking she gave without thought will have no force or effect, and she will have the Lord's forgiveness. 9 But an oath made by a widow or one who is no longer married to her husband, and every undertaking she has given, will have force. 10 If she made an oath while she was under the authority of her husband, 11 And her husband, hearing of it, said nothing to her and did not put a stop to it, then all her oaths and every undertaking she gave will have force. 12 But if her husband, on hearing of it, made them without force or effect, then whatever she has said about her oaths or her undertaking has no force: her husband has made them without effect, and she will have the Lord's forgiveness. 13 Every oath, and every undertaking which she gives, to keep herself from pleasure, may be supported or broken by her husband. 14 But if the days go on, and her husband says nothing whatever to her, then he is giving the support of his authority to her oaths and undertakings, because at the time of hearing them he said nothing to her. 15 But if at some time after hearing of them, he makes them without force, then he is responsible for her wrongdoing. 16 These are the laws which the Lord gave Moses in relation to a man and his wife, or a father and a young daughter who is under his authority.

 

[TC]

Using OT law which most of you claim that we are not under today does not prove anything.

Just because God did not record a rebuke to Sarah for playing along with Abrahams lie does not make it right. Arguments from silence are not legitimate reasons. Likewise, it is wrong to teach that because the Bible tells the wife to submit to the husband, she should obey his every command even if it is clearly sinful. In no way can the wife engage in sin just because the husband says so. She is accountable for her own sin and the husband is accountable for his own sin.

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by TC:
Using OT law which most of you claim that we are not under today does not prove anything.*snip*

It is convenient for them to try to assert law. Until someone with their very same view tries to put laws on them. Then they rant grace, grace, grace.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by James Newman:
I don't believe anyone said that a woman should sin in order to obey her husband. But as was pointed out, assuming it was a lie, God did not rebuke Sarah for obeying Abraham and saying she was his sister. I would submit (hahah) one item for you to ponder.

If a man is to be the head of his wife, as Christ is the head of the church, and is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, why should it not be that the man is responsible for the sins of the wife, if she in good faith submits to her husband in everything? Not that I am saying she should knowingly sin, but if she did because her husband told her to do something, would not the husband be held accountable?

You forgot the verse that links the preceding passage with Eph. 5:22-33. Eph. 5:21 is a participial phrase. In Greek that was used to link the previous passage with the following passage. So your separating them is arbitrary. Scripture does not.

Eph. 5:21, “and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.”

In answer to your question, “... why should it not be that the man is responsible for the sins of the wife, if she in good faith submits to her husband in everything?” In heaven there is no wife or husband. All are responsible to God. Scripture says that every person is to submit themselves to the governing authorities. But we also see in Acts where it did not happen, because their allegiance was to God first. They stated God is first. They chose to submit to God over man’s wishes.

My brother-in-law who is now a retired police sergeant once told me that it is the bullies that command submission from their wives. He has seen it first-hand. Many have been arrested because of spousal abuse.

Sometime just do some research and even ask divorce attorneys about what kind of church groups have the highest spousal abuse rate. It might surprise you.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
In a good Christian marriage, the wife can express her concern about a 'gray area' and a God fearing man would then pray and seek counsel before having his wife do something questionable.

I believe you have stated Eph. 5:21 well.

 

[joyfulkeeperathome]

Going back to the original question, it really doesn't matter whether submit means obey in the passage to wives b/c wives are clearly shown in Titus 2:5 to OBEY their husbands. It is speaking here telling the older women what to teach the younger women. "To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." Sounds like we as wives are commanded to obey our husbands to me!!!!

 

[gb93433]

All the following references have words that stem from the same word used for submission or being subject to used in Eph. 5:21 and Titus 2:5. In one translation I looked at it translates the word as submission sometimes and obedience at other times.

If one will take a look at those verses in context it will give a true biblical picture of what that word actually means.

Luke 2:51
Luke 10:17
Luke 10:20
Roma 8:7
Roma 8:20
Roma 10:3
Roma 13:1
Roma 13:5
1Cor 14:32
1Cor 14:34
1Cor 15:27, 28
1Cor 16:16
Ephe 1:22
Ephe 5:21
Ephe 5:24
Phil 3:21
Colo 3:18
Titu 2:5
Titu 2:9
Titu 3:1
Hebr 2:5
Hebr 2:8
Hebr 12:9
Jame 4:7
1Pet 2:13
1Pet 2:18
1Pet 3:1
1Pet 3:5
1Pet 3:22
1Pet 5:5


I think Hebrews 12:9 says it well.

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Our spouse WILL take blame!
...........

Not if your names are Ananias and Sapphira!

I have often asked on these threads for specific examples of how a Christian husband actually needs to command his Christian wife on a practical basis.
Are there Christian men who really think it is their duty to plan their wive's lives in every or most details and then issue commands?
How does this work out on a daily basis?

My husband does not command me to do things. He is too busy thinking of ways to take care of his family. He puts our welfare above his own.

If a situation is unclear, maybe the husband and wife should both keep praying.

Karen

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Karen:
Not if your names are Ananias and Sapphira!

I have often asked on these threads for specific examples of how a Christian husband actually needs to command his Christian wife on a practical basis.

Are there Christian men who really think it is their duty to plan their wive's lives in every or most details and then issue commands?
How does this work out on a daily basis?

My husband does not command me to do things. He is too busy thinking of ways to take care of his family. He puts our welfare above his own.

If a situation is unclear, maybe the husband and wife should both keep praying.

Karen

Excellent points and plan.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by joyfulkeeperathome:
"To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." Sounds like we as wives are commanded to obey our husbands to me!!!!

Don't forget the context. The obedience here is in regards to keeping the word of God from being blasphemed. That is not akin to blind obedience of whatever the husband says. That said, a husband who is living up to his scriptural responsibility will not ever command his wife, so the point is somewhat moot.

 

[joyfulkeeperathome]

I was simply indicating that under normal circumstances, obedience is expected from the wife to the husband, just as it is expected under normal circumstances that the children obey the parents.

 

[dianetavegia]

So if a Christian wife OBEYS God, she'll SUBMIT to her husband.

Not if your names are Ananias and Sapphira!

Sapphira chose to be guilty! I never said a wife was to obey her husband if against God's laws. The question was, in a gray matter, if the husband makes a decision and it's wrong, will the wife be held accountable for doing as she was told. In that context... no. In the context of Ananias and Sapphira, they conspired to lie to the Holy Spirit.

 

[joyfulkeeperathome]

Amen, Diane, Preach it!!! (er, I mean, teach it....lol)