Submit = Obey?

[av1611jim]

Amen! Brother, Preach it!

In His service;
Jim

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Diane's role as a godly wife is not in dispute. Nor are we disputing scripture that women should submit to their usbands. What is at issue is whether obeying like a child and submtting are the same thing, and whether the husband's headship means he can command the wife. That's the issue.

I have set forth scripture supporting the view that a parent-child relationship of obedience on the part of the children and husband-wife relationship with the wife told to submit are not the same thing.

And, of course, it's easier to be a godly wife if you have a godly husband. The behavior starts with the husband since he is the spiritual head.

I agree with that for the most part, Marcia. Still though if one does not fulfill thier role where does it excuse the other?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James Newman:
OK, assume that both parties are at fault, I don't disagree that this is probably the most likely scenario. The man is less likely however to be too domineering, than to be too permissive.

I think they're probably equal, roughly. Overdomineering men is an epidemic just as much as overpermissiveness. It's just that we Christian tend to forgive overdomineering men, while at the same time, we scold men who give off the slightest hint of overpermissiveness, as though we had come down with wimp-a-phobia.

The man is commanded to lead his wife, to be the head of the family. Most men today are unwilling to do this, and feminism has provided them with a convenient excuse not to do it.

Many, yes. But I don't think it's most. Again, it goes back to wimp-a-phobia. If we see someon who isn't leading as WE think he should lead, all of a sudden, they're wimps in our eyes. We're usually wrong, but it's our sinful nature that puts it in our hearts to misjudge people, and Godly men who aren't playing qien es mas macho are easy targets.

I think you are a victim of modern feminism JohnV. I used to think largely the way you do, that men and woman are equal and I have no right to tell my wife anything.

Whoa, dude. First, when I said that men and women were equal, it was in the context of equality under the law. Second, in a marriage, it's not a matter of equal or not, since a scriptural marriage, the husband and wife are one. Not two, with one over the other, but one. Now, in that oneness, the husband has the role of headship, and the wife has the role of scriptural submissiveness. But these are not exclusive of each other, just as one flesh cannot be exclusive of one or another.

But really that was an excuse for me to not have to lead my home, and not have to listen to her complaining when I told her to do something she didn't want to do.

Interesting. But to be the scriptural head, you have an obligation to listen to your spouse, and take her needs and desires into account. A scriptural head doesn't just tell his spouse to do something, and expect her to do it. Headship requires taking the lead, getting input from the spouse, and coming up with a solution that satsfies the concerns and needs ot both parties in the "one flesh" covenant. I stated earlier that abuse of spiritual roles is typically an instance where both spouses are a party to. That appears to be the case with you, from what you've said. Yes, your spouse appears to be abusing your role of headship, but you appear to be abusing her role of submission. Again, just from what you've said in this instance. This is not an attack on you, though. I think every married couple ends up doing this at one point or another. Every fine-tuned watch needs to get synchronized regularly.

I stopped trying to lead her, and I paid the price for it. Our marriage has been beaten almost to the breaking point.

I submit that it's probably a combination of you not leading properly, and then you not leading at all, combined with her not submitting properly, and then her not submitting at all. Again, no attack on you personally. It's no shame to admit to having a broken watch. So, the question is, how to get the gears back in place? Part of that is both of you having an understanding of what each of you expects from each other, and what each of you is willing to do for the other, in regards to the roles of headship and submission.

Now, years later I am finally getting things turned around, and it has only been through constant prayer, trying to be a godly husband through the guidance of the holy spirit, and by my asserting my headship until she submitted to me. She must be willing to make concession to my understanding even if she disagrees.

Headship and submission is NOT her having to concede whenever there's a disagreement. That's not scriptural. Headship is you taking the lead to resolve the disagreement in a manner that both of you are happy with.

There is no such thing as a democracy of two, someone has to have the final say in every matter that we disagree upon.

True, but in a marriage, there is not "two", there is "one". That is, there's one flesh. I submit the possibility that perhaps one of the issues your wife has had in the past is that she feels like you've wanted to have things "your way", while she's expected to just go along with you. If this is how she's felt, then there's likely been abuse of the headship role on your part. Again, no attack upon you here, since part of the submission role requires a wife to work with her husband to find a solution, and them let him lead by implimenting that solution.

That somebody used to be whoever could hold their breath the longest. Now it is me.

[/QB]
Sciptural headship is not "the husband can hold his breath longer than the wife". All that does is make you turn bluer than her. Plus, it doesn't resolve the original disagreement.

I don't think men should beat their wives into submission, ultimately only the Holy Spirit can change her heart.

Of course. That's a clear abuse of the headship role, not to mention, it's tantamount to marital dessertion.

But it has to start with the man making a choice to serve God and God alone, and letting his wife know that He has made that choice, then following through with it. When she realizes that the husband is finally ready to truly be the man of the house, I believe that she will follow, as God intended her to do all along. Likewise, if a woman truly submits to her husband in faith, regardless of how good his leadership skills are, and he understands that she does this out of obedience to the Lord, I believe the Holy Spirit will move in that man to change him. There is nothing quite like having good returned to you for evil to change your heart, and add to that the power of God and the promises of scripture, I don't see any other way for a woman to react in such a situation.

Good points all.

Now there may be exceptions if a womans life is in danger, but I am not the judge in such matters, I suppose each woman must be led by the spirit. I disagree with wife battering, but I certainly don't believe God will despise a godly woman who stayed with an abusive husband out of faith.

In these cases, it's tough. In a perfect Godly world, this situation won't exist. Unfortunately, we live in a world where sin is a natural occurrence, and we must deal with the consequences of that. No, I don't think that God will despise a Godly woman who stays with a battering spouse. God doesn't despise his children, period. However, if our staying in a situation enables the other person to sin, then we have an obligation to leave the situation. There's never ever an easy answer to these situations.

 

[James_Newman]

Well, I certainly couldn't take any of your post as a personal attack considering you don't know me or my wife. However, I disagree with the notion that all of marriage is a happy compromise. Somethings can not be compromised.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Well, I certainly couldn't take any of your post as a personal attack considering you don't know me or my wife. However, I disagree with the notion that all of marriage is a happy compromise. Somethings can not be compromised.

Not all compromises are "happy", but compromise is not a dirty word. One of the great disservices we've done to our marriages is to make "compromise" a dirty word. Now, in regards to things of a spiritual nature, you're correct. If one of you is sinning, then the other is not to compromise, lest he/she become a party to sin. However, if the issue is, for example, you want to paint the house black, and she wants to paint it green, this is not a spiritual issue, then for you (or her) to go ahead and paint your house the color of your choice is the result of a spirit of self-centeredness, disrespect, and lack of love.

Joshua 24:15 is not relevant to the topic, since it does not discuss the marital relationship, let alone the issue of compromise. However, it does imply a family unity in service to the Lord, and is valuable for study to that point.

 

[Fishnbread]

I am only going to post once on this thread unless of course someone needs me to explain something about my post.

This is a very touchy issue especialy with Baptists, because we all believe differant things and as a result we are not always open to new ideas or concepts, this is why we must exercise extra caution and patience when dealing with other Baptist on this issue we should also pray and ask God to show us the correct way. Only through the respect of each other, love for Christ, and loyality to seeking the truth, will we get a genuine interpretation of what our father in heaven's true and complete commandments are on this issue.

God bless and keep you all.
your brother and servant.

-Fishnbread.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by James Newman
So a woman who is staying out till all hours of the night and spending all the family's money on lottery tickets cannot be commanded to stop by her husband? What if she is fellowshipping with the drug dealing neighbors? At what point is a husband allowed to assert his authority? And how does he assert it without commanding?

There's a saying lawyers have, "Hard cases make bad law." In other words, you don't decide an issue based on the worst case scenario. The situation above is extreme and goes beyond the normal headship/submit situation -- in fact, it's happening because there are probably lots of things going on worse than just the wife not submitting. Things have happened to lead to this situation and those have to be dealt with (unless the man married the wife knowing she was doing these things, then he's gone along with it). As JohnV pointed out, now it's become a situation of confronting the person with a sin.