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Submit = Obey?
- Thread starter Timtoolman
- Start date
joyfulkeeperathome
New Member
the comparison I used is as though I had said I like chocolate just as much as I do taco bell burritos. They are totally different foods, but I enjoy eating both. Yes, those are totally different relationship, but obedience is expected from both!!!
joyfulkeeperathome
New Member
why not???? (and add some Dr. Pepper, too....) lol
D
dianetavegia
Guest
My husband has no need to demand submission or obedience from me. God told me in His Holy Word that I am to submit and submit I do, willingly!
BTW... my husband called home today to check on me, I told him I was nervous and he spoke to his boss, drove home to be with me, cooked supper and then while I was in AWANA, spoke before our prayer meeting group to ask for prayer saying VERY kind things about me as a wife.
Jim obeys God. I submit to Jim. Therefore... I obey God.
BTW... my husband called home today to check on me, I told him I was nervous and he spoke to his boss, drove home to be with me, cooked supper and then while I was in AWANA, spoke before our prayer meeting group to ask for prayer saying VERY kind things about me as a wife.
Jim obeys God. I submit to Jim. Therefore... I obey God.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
I believe that with my whole heart! God has certainly blessed me!
Timtoolman
New Member
Not if your names are Ananias and Sapphira!
I have often asked on these threads for specific examples of how a Christian husband actually needs to command his Christian wife on a practical basis.
Are there Christian men who really think it is their duty to plan their wive's lives in every or most details and then issue commands?
How does this work out on a daily basis?
My husband does not command me to do things. He is too busy thinking of ways to take care of his family. He puts our welfare above his own.
If a situation is unclear, maybe the husband and wife should both keep praying.
Karen </font>[/QUOTE]Karen, I have asked what does submit mean, here ,and at church. Apparently it means zero, to some, because some believe the bible cancels out the word submit. I have never met a man who plans out her whole day. Not saying there aren't any but I am trying to keep this in the everyday practical sense. Yeah we have abuse, on both sides. However scriptures explains, and quite clearly, that we are to submit as unto the Lord. It does bring glory and honor for women to trust God and show that trust to the world so as not to dishonor the word and show thier faith in God also.
What does submit mean for a christain wife? What area's is she too submit, bible only gives a vague discription "in everything"
so I guess I am always wondering in what ways women think they are too submit. I get two answers, they never have too, or always as long as it doesn't go against God's word. No where does the Bible tell either partner that their role, to love the wife, or to submit to the husband is negated by the fact one disobeys God's word and does not fulfill their role. Because again, it is not really for him or her but to the Lord, and for the Lord. Too much for some to give up, yep. That is the flesh. We want our own way and what seems fair to us.Timtoolman
New Member
May I add that he is also blessed to have a wife like you. One who is not afraid to take the bible and trust it. I appreciate your testimony on here.
Amen!
Diane has a wonderful testimony as to exactly what a godly wife should be like.
I believe she would maintain that testimony even if her husband were not saved. Praise God he is.
BTW. Her testimony also demonstrates what you get if you are a godly man.
In His service;
Jim
Diane has a wonderful testimony as to exactly what a godly wife should be like.
I believe she would maintain that testimony even if her husband were not saved. Praise God he is.
BTW. Her testimony also demonstrates what you get if you are a godly man.
In His service;
Jim
Marcia
Active Member
Diane's role as a godly wife is not in dispute. Nor are we disputing scripture that women should submit to their usbands. What is at issue is whether obeying like a child and submtting are the same thing, and whether the husband's headship means he can command the wife. That's the issue.
I have set forth scripture supporting the view that a parent-child relationship of obedience on the part of the children and husband-wife relationship with the wife told to submit are not the same thing.
And, of course, it's easier to be a godly wife if you have a godly husband. The behavior starts with the husband since he is the spiritual head.
I have set forth scripture supporting the view that a parent-child relationship of obedience on the part of the children and husband-wife relationship with the wife told to submit are not the same thing.
And, of course, it's easier to be a godly wife if you have a godly husband. The behavior starts with the husband since he is the spiritual head.
No, a child submitting to a parent is not the same as a wife submitting to a husband. THeyr'e two completely different relationships. Likewise, sumbitting to the government is also diffrent. Though we're called to sumbit as to the Lord, each relationship is different.
As far as the husband's headhip meaning he can command his wife, no. The spiritual role of headship does not give the husband authoruty to command his spouse. A husband who commands his spouse is abusing the spiritual role of headship, and is therefore sinning against his wife and against his Lord.
James_Newman
New Member
So a woman who is staying out till all hours of the night and spending all the family's money on lottery tickets cannot be commanded to stop by her husband? What if she is fellowshipping with the drug dealing neighbors? At what point is a husband allowed to assert his authority? And how does he assert it without commanding?
I think in the perfect Christian home, the husband lovingly suggests and the wife lovingly submits, but it doesn't always work that way. A woman who will not submit to her husband is all too common these days. The meek and quiet spirit has largely been replaced with loud and contentious. But a man is commanded to lead his home, so how does one deal with this type of wife and remain the head of the family?
I think in the perfect Christian home, the husband lovingly suggests and the wife lovingly submits, but it doesn't always work that way. A woman who will not submit to her husband is all too common these days. The meek and quiet spirit has largely been replaced with loud and contentious. But a man is commanded to lead his home, so how does one deal with this type of wife and remain the head of the family?
I think some folks are confusing the word command.
A husband is not a drill sergeant. Command in this sense could be wrong. On the other hand, If I say, "Honey, I want you to do such and so today," that is a command. So maybe we ought to get nit-picky and define terms?
Scripture clearly says "obey your husbands." I see no wiggle room here.
As has been pointed out; Sarah obeyed Abraham. Certainly you cannot argue that she did not know lying was wrong? No, in fact she is commended for obeying even though she knew it was wrong. Was she commended for doing wrong? No. Her commendation was for doing that which is right; that is, obeying her husband. I believe a case can be made that Abraham paid dearly for his sin and for making his wife to sin also. Nevertheless, Sarah did the right thing. She obeyed her husband, "As unto the Lord."
What the relationship is does not matter. God is pleased with obedience to authority. For even our Lord was obedient unto death. Giving us an example.
Where in Scripture do you see God limiting the husbands authority over his wife? The passage in Ephesians ends with, "Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
I see no wiggle room here. I agree a man should not be a tyrant. But even if he is, if she is to obey God, she should obey her husband. God will be pleased with her, but sorely displeased with him. Is she sinning in obeying? No, in no wise. On the contrary, she shows her obedience to God by being in subjection to her husband. After all, she chose him. Right or wrong, thems the facts.
A child should obey his parents because that is the authority God has placed over him. A wife should obey her husband because that is the authority God has placed over her. A citizen should obey the government (good or bad) because that is the authority God has placed over him. Same thing. Authority. God has delegated His authority to people. And He holds they in authority accountable for how they use or abuse that stewardship.
The issue some may raise concerning the disciples disobeying the rulers in Jerusalem is a different matter. Clearly they (the rulers) were commanding them (the disciples) to disown Christ. This they could not do. Nevertheless, the disciples still submitted to the beatings, knowing it was wrong, and rejoiced for being able to suffer for Christ.
Are you a disciple of Christ? Would you not count it all joy to suffer for Him?
Hard question indeed.
In His service;
Jim
A husband is not a drill sergeant. Command in this sense could be wrong. On the other hand, If I say, "Honey, I want you to do such and so today," that is a command. So maybe we ought to get nit-picky and define terms?
Scripture clearly says "obey your husbands." I see no wiggle room here.
As has been pointed out; Sarah obeyed Abraham. Certainly you cannot argue that she did not know lying was wrong? No, in fact she is commended for obeying even though she knew it was wrong. Was she commended for doing wrong? No. Her commendation was for doing that which is right; that is, obeying her husband. I believe a case can be made that Abraham paid dearly for his sin and for making his wife to sin also. Nevertheless, Sarah did the right thing. She obeyed her husband, "As unto the Lord."
What the relationship is does not matter. God is pleased with obedience to authority. For even our Lord was obedient unto death. Giving us an example.
Where in Scripture do you see God limiting the husbands authority over his wife? The passage in Ephesians ends with, "Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
I see no wiggle room here. I agree a man should not be a tyrant. But even if he is, if she is to obey God, she should obey her husband. God will be pleased with her, but sorely displeased with him. Is she sinning in obeying? No, in no wise. On the contrary, she shows her obedience to God by being in subjection to her husband. After all, she chose him. Right or wrong, thems the facts.
A child should obey his parents because that is the authority God has placed over him. A wife should obey her husband because that is the authority God has placed over her. A citizen should obey the government (good or bad) because that is the authority God has placed over him. Same thing. Authority. God has delegated His authority to people. And He holds they in authority accountable for how they use or abuse that stewardship.
The issue some may raise concerning the disciples disobeying the rulers in Jerusalem is a different matter. Clearly they (the rulers) were commanding them (the disciples) to disown Christ. This they could not do. Nevertheless, the disciples still submitted to the beatings, knowing it was wrong, and rejoiced for being able to suffer for Christ.
Are you a disciple of Christ? Would you not count it all joy to suffer for Him?
Hard question indeed.
In His service;
Jim
I am not sure Sarah is commended for her lying but rather for her attitude of submission. Not all narratives are sound doctrine. Who knows she may be commended. We don't know. The text doesn't say.
But I found it interesting that one time I heard a famous missisonary speak and he mentioned that he lied to the guards at a border when they asked him if he had any Bibles in his car. His car was loaded with them. So I have always questioned about the idea of lying to Satan. I have come to the conclusion that lying to God is far different than lying to Satan.
May times we hear of investigations being done where the accused is lied to in hopes of getting a confession. Spies that go to other countries are lying. They try to be a part of the country undetected for who they really are.
But I found it interesting that one time I heard a famous missisonary speak and he mentioned that he lied to the guards at a border when they asked him if he had any Bibles in his car. His car was loaded with them. So I have always questioned about the idea of lying to Satan. I have come to the conclusion that lying to God is far different than lying to Satan.
May times we hear of investigations being done where the accused is lied to in hopes of getting a confession. Spies that go to other countries are lying. They try to be a part of the country undetected for who they really are.
gb,"I am not sure Sarah is commended for her lying but rather for her attitude of submission. Not all narratives are sound doctrine. Who knows she may be commended. We don't know. The text doesn't say."
Jim,"As has been pointed out; Sarah obeyed Abraham. Certainly you cannot argue that she did not know lying was wrong? No, in fact she is commended for obeying even though she knew it was wrong. Was she commended for doing wrong? No. Her commendation was for doing that which is right; that is, obeying her husband. I believe a case can be made that Abraham paid dearly for his sin and for making his wife to sin also. Nevertheless, Sarah did the right thing. She obeyed her husband, "As unto the Lord.""
In His service;
Jim
Jim,"As has been pointed out; Sarah obeyed Abraham. Certainly you cannot argue that she did not know lying was wrong? No, in fact she is commended for obeying even though she knew it was wrong. Was she commended for doing wrong? No. Her commendation was for doing that which is right; that is, obeying her husband. I believe a case can be made that Abraham paid dearly for his sin and for making his wife to sin also. Nevertheless, Sarah did the right thing. She obeyed her husband, "As unto the Lord.""
In His service;
Jim
Let's flip the arguement here. If the husband is staying out till all hours of the night and spending all the family's money on lottery tickets, does the wife have a right to command the husband to stop? Yes, she does. Submission does not forbid the spouse from calling the husband on sinful behavior. Both spouses have a right (and responsibility) to demand of the other spouse that he/she refrain from destructive family behavior. But, in normal situations, no, neither spouse has the authority to make arbitrary demands on the other spouse.
True. There are too many husbands and wives who abuse the spiritual roles of headship and submission. Sometimes, when one spouse abuses the role, the other spouse reacts by also abusing the role. Neithier is okay. Probably a more common situation these days is spouses who make unscriptural expectations of the other spouse's scriptural role. Men demanding their wives to cook, clean, and have intimate relations upon request, and invoking submission, are way too common. Likewise, wives forcing their husbands to make all the decisions and refusing to give input, while invoking headship, are equally common. These situations contribute to unhealthyness in the marital covenant.
It's a mutual problem. My $.02 is that, in situations where this is chronic, one spouse alone is typically not the sole abuser of spiritual roles. Bother are often abusing the roles, either by placing an unscriptural burden on the other, or by enabling the other spouse to abuse the scriptural role.
James_Newman
New Member
OK, assume that both parties are at fault, I don't disagree that this is probably the most likely scenario. The man is less likely however to be too domineering, than to be too permissive. The man is commanded to lead his wife, to be the head of the family. Most men today are unwilling to do this, and feminism has provided them with a convenient excuse not to do it.
I think you are a victim of modern feminism JohnV. I used to think largely the way you do, that men and woman are equal and I have no right to tell my wife anything. But really that was an excuse for me to not have to lead my home, and not have to listen to her complaining when I told her to do something she didn't want to do. I stopped trying to lead her, and I paid the price for it. Our marriage has been beaten almost to the breaking point.
Now, years later I am finally getting things turned around, and it has only been through constant prayer, trying to be a godly husband through the guidance of the holy spirit, and by my asserting my headship until she submitted to me. She must be willing to make concession to my understanding even if she disagrees. There is no such thing as a democracy of two, someone has to have the final say in every matter that we disagree upon. That somebody used to be whoever could hold their breath the longest. Now it is me.
I don't think men should beat their wives into submission, ultimately only the Holy Spirit can change her heart. But it has to start with the man making a choice to serve God and God alone, and letting his wife know that He has made that choice, then following through with it. When she realizes that the husband is finally ready to truly be the man of the house, I believe that she will follow, as God intended her to do all along.
Likewise, if a woman truly submits to her husband in faith, regardless of how good his leadership skills are, and he understands that she does this out of obedience to the Lord, I believe the Holy Spirit will move in that man to change him. There is nothing quite like having good returned to you for evil to change your heart, and add to that the power of God and the promises of scripture, I don't see any other way for a woman to react in such a situation. Now there may be exceptions if a womans life is in danger, but I am not the judge in such matters, I suppose each woman must be led by the spirit. I disagree with wife battering, but I certainly don't believe God will despise a godly woman who stayed with an abusive husband out of faith.
I think you are a victim of modern feminism JohnV. I used to think largely the way you do, that men and woman are equal and I have no right to tell my wife anything. But really that was an excuse for me to not have to lead my home, and not have to listen to her complaining when I told her to do something she didn't want to do. I stopped trying to lead her, and I paid the price for it. Our marriage has been beaten almost to the breaking point.
Now, years later I am finally getting things turned around, and it has only been through constant prayer, trying to be a godly husband through the guidance of the holy spirit, and by my asserting my headship until she submitted to me. She must be willing to make concession to my understanding even if she disagrees. There is no such thing as a democracy of two, someone has to have the final say in every matter that we disagree upon. That somebody used to be whoever could hold their breath the longest. Now it is me.
I don't think men should beat their wives into submission, ultimately only the Holy Spirit can change her heart. But it has to start with the man making a choice to serve God and God alone, and letting his wife know that He has made that choice, then following through with it. When she realizes that the husband is finally ready to truly be the man of the house, I believe that she will follow, as God intended her to do all along.
Likewise, if a woman truly submits to her husband in faith, regardless of how good his leadership skills are, and he understands that she does this out of obedience to the Lord, I believe the Holy Spirit will move in that man to change him. There is nothing quite like having good returned to you for evil to change your heart, and add to that the power of God and the promises of scripture, I don't see any other way for a woman to react in such a situation. Now there may be exceptions if a womans life is in danger, but I am not the judge in such matters, I suppose each woman must be led by the spirit. I disagree with wife battering, but I certainly don't believe God will despise a godly woman who stayed with an abusive husband out of faith.