Sympathy for the Arminian, Part 3

[Protestant]

There are two factors involved in sight. A man must have the physical ability to see, and there must be light. A man with the physical ability to see in a perfectly dark room is blind, he cannot see. But turn on the light and he can see.

And this is how man's spiritual blindness is described in scripture, as being in darkness. No man can see in darkness. But light a candle, and then a man can see.

The gift of spiritual sight requires the same omnipotent power of God used to heal the man blind from birth (blindness symbolizing man’s innate sinful nature which is spiritually blind).

The gift of forgiveness of sins requires the same omnipotent power of God used to heal the man with palsy (palsy symbolizing the debilitating effects of sin).

The healing of leprosy (leprosy symbolizing sin) required the omnipotent power of God.

The healing of sin sick man also requires the omnipotent power of God.

“They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”​

Jesus likens sin to a disease which permeates every fiber of a man’s body, including his heart, his will, his eyesight, his understanding.

Just as it is impossible for the blind man, the paralytic or the leper to will themselves to full health, neither can sinful man cure his sin disease by the power of his own will.

It is only by the saving grace and power of Jesus, the Great Physician, that sin sick man can be healed completely, permanently and eternally.

Jesus uses earthly miracles to teach spiritual/heavenly truths….truths about salvation.

Protestant quoted:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.​

You cannot form doctrine on hymns. Many hymns are full of serious error.

Your mocking of Newton’s ‘Amazing Grace’, accusing him of serious doctrinal error, is most unconscionable.

“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”​

 

[Winman]

The gift of spiritual sight requires the same omnipotent power of God used to heal the man blind from birth (blindness symbolizing man’s innate sinful nature which is spiritually blind).

The gift of forgiveness of sins requires the same omnipotent power of God used to heal the man with palsy (palsy symbolizing the debilitating effects of sin).

The healing of leprosy (leprosy symbolizing sin) required the omnipotent power of God.

The healing of sin sick man also requires the omnipotent power of God.

“They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”​

Jesus likens sin to a disease which permeates every fiber of a man’s body, including his heart, his will, his eyesight, his understanding.

Just as it is impossible for the blind man, the paralytic or the leper to will themselves to full health, neither can sinful man cure his sin disease by the power of his own will.

It is only by the saving grace and power of Jesus, the Great Physician, that sin sick man can be healed completely, permanently and eternally.

Jesus uses earthly miracles to teach spiritual/heavenly truths….truths about salvation.

Protestant quoted:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.​

Your mocking of Newton’s ‘Amazing Grace’, accusing him of serious doctrinal error, is most unconscionable.

“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”​

Your problem is that Jesus did not compare lost persons to persons born physically blind, but said they "closed their eyes". They were not unable to see, Jesus said if they opened their eyes and heard with their ears they would be converted and he would heal them.

A person who closes their eyes is not UNABLE to see.

 

[Protestant]

Your problem is that Jesus did not compare lost persons to persons born physically blind, but said they "closed their eyes". They were not unable to see, Jesus said if they opened their eyes and heard with their ears they would be converted and he would heal them.

A person who closes their eyes is not UNABLE to see.

“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”

This quote is a reconstruction of Jeremiah 5:21:

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not"​

Unless the Great Physician gives a sinner spiritual sight, that sinner willingly remains spiritually blind.

His willingness to remain spiritually blind is analogous to willingly closing one's eyes.....to the truth.

 

[Winman]

“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”

This quote is a reconstruction of Jeremiah 5:21:

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not"​

Unless the Great Physician gives a sinner spiritual sight, that sinner willingly remains spiritually blind.

His willingness to remain spiritually blind is analogous to willingly closing one's eyes.....to the truth.

Why do Calvinists act like a person being obstinate and not listening is some sort of magical thing? A little kid will refuse to eat his carrots, and nobody thinks it would take a supernatural miracle to change his mind.

Calvinism is a superstitious mystical religion, not unlike it's mother Roman Catholicism.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Why do Calvinists act like a person being obstinate and not listening is some sort of magical thing? A little kid will refuse to eat his carrots, and nobody thinks it would take a supernatural miracle to change his mind.

Calvinism is a superstitious mystical religion, not unlike it's mother Roman Catholicism.

Instead of complaining/mocking why not prove your point with scripture

 

[Winman]

Instead of complaining/mocking why not prove your point with scripture

First of all, you will not find anybody here at BB that submits more scripture to prove his points that I do. NONE.

Second, it is Calvinism that claims man is unable to respond to the gospel, it is Calvinism that needs to prove this with scripture.

So let's see what you've got, let me see scripture that says men are unable to respond to the gospel.

 

[Protestant]

Why do Calvinists act like a person being obstinate and not listening is some sort of magical thing?

Winman, listen to yourself. You are becoming unglued in your argumentation.

The issue is not that man's unwillingness to see spiritual truth is rooted in a magical thing, the issue is the fact that it is rooted in man's nature naturally.

A little kid will refuse to eat his carrots, and nobody thinks it would take a supernatural miracle to change his mind.

Winman, perhaps you should take a break......get some fresh air......do a few deep knee bends........spend some time in a social setting.......anything to clear your head.

You are now equating rejection of carrots to rejection of Jesus??!!

Calvinism is a superstitious mystical religion, not unlike it's mother Roman Catholicism.

Christianity is supernatural by nature. It's origin is a supernatural being called The Lord God.

His Gospel is considered foolishness by the unregenerate.

His Son, His teachings and His disciples have caused chaos and revolutions worldwide.

This particular section of the Baptist Board is but one example of revolt against the status quo.

You, sir, are the status quo.

 

[Reformed]

Second, it is Calvinism that claims man is unable to respond to the gospel, it is Calvinism that needs to prove this with scripture.

This is not true.

Calvinism teaches that sinful man is not able to respond to the Gospel while in his sinful state. Visit this THREAD if you want to see this subject vetted. Read post #89.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

First of all, you will not find anybody here at BB that submits more scripture to prove his points that I do. NONE.

Second, it is Calvinism that claims man is unable to respond to the gospel, it is Calvinism that needs to prove this with scripture.

So let's see what you've got, let me see scripture that says men are unable to respond to the gospel.

First, congratulations.
Second, our eyes must be enlightend for us to see. Ephesians 1:18 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Third, I don't think Calvinist believe no one can respond to the gospel(in any case I do not). I don't believe anyone would be saved if that was the case.

 

[Iconoclast]

First, congratulations.
Second, our eyes must be enlightend for us to see. Ephesians 1:18 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Third, I don't think Calvinist believe no one can respond to the gospel(in any case I do not). I don't believe anyone would be saved if that was the case.

JE,

Winman does offer many scriptures....so much out of context that they really are not scripture anymore. You will see this very soon as he repeats himself every half hour or so:wavey:

 

[Winman]

First, congratulations.

I do not seek or need your (or anybody else's) approval. But you made a remark about proving my points with scripture. You will find I quote scripture to support my views constantly.

Second, our eyes must be enlightend for us to see. Ephesians 1:18 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

To be enlightened means to be taught. It means to acquire KNOWLEDGE. It does not mean to be supernaturally zapped the way Frankenstein was in the old movie.

It is not being zapped that enables a man to believe in Jesus, it is being taught.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Who did Jesus say comes to him in faith? Those who have been TAUGHT. He did not say they had to be zapped. But man has the responsibility to HEAR and LEARN. Every man who does listen to God and learns from him shall come to Jesus in faith. This is what Jesus himself taught.

That is why we are commanded to TEACH all nations. Why should we teach the nations if a man can only believe if God zaps him? You seem bright, doesn't that seem nonsensical?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Knowledge is what enables men to believe, that is why Jesus commanded us to teach the nations. Do you see that now?

Third, I don't think Calvinist believe no one can respond to the gospel(in any case I do not). I don't believe anyone would be saved if that was the case.

Well, truth is, no two Calvinists believe exactly the same. But many do believe man is utterly unable to positively respond to the gospel unless they are first regenerated.

The scriptures teach the opposite, the scriptures teach that those men who believe the gospel shall be regenerated.

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

I do not seek or need your (or anybody else's) approval. But you made a remark about proving my points with scripture. You will find I quote scripture to support my views constantly.



To be enlightened means to be taught. It means to acquire KNOWLEDGE. It does not mean to be supernaturally zapped the way Frankenstein was in the old movie.

It is not being zapped that enables a man to believe in Jesus, it is being taught.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Who did Jesus say comes to him in faith? Those who have been TAUGHT. He did not say they had to be zapped. But man has the responsibility to HEAR and LEARN. Every man who does listen to God and learns from him shall come to Jesus in faith. This is what Jesus himself taught.

That is why we are commanded to TEACH all nations. Why should we teach the nations if a man can only believe if God zaps him? You seem bright, doesn't that seem nonsensical?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Knowledge is what enables men to believe, that is why Jesus commanded us to teach the nations. Do you see that now?

No, Paul had just finished explaining how they were chosen for salvation and predestined because of God's love. Pretty sure Paul is speaking of a saving knowledge, however I am prone to error with my limited understanding.

Well, truth is, no two Calvinists believe exactly the same. But many do believe man is utterly unable to positively respond to the gospel unless they are first regenerated.

The scriptures teach the opposite, the scriptures teach that those men who believe the gospel shall be regenerated.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 ESV)

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

JE,

Winman does offer many scriptures....so much out of context that they really are not scripture anymore. You will see this very soon as he repeats himself every half hour or so:wavey:

:laugh:I got a good laugh out of this

 

[Rippon]

Winman, listen to yourself. You are becoming unglued in your argumentation.



Winman, perhaps you should take a break......get some fresh air......do a few deep knee bends........spend some time in a social setting.......anything to clear your head.

You are now equating rejection of carrots to rejection of Jesus??!!

I caught that too. He has some rather strange illustrations. I sense desperation on his part.

 

[Winman]

This is not true.

Calvinism teaches that sinful man is not able to respond to the Gospel while in his sinful state. Visit this THREAD if you want to see this subject vetted. Read post #89.

No kidding.

As though I wasn't aware that Calvinism teaches a man must be regenerated to respond...

Yeah, I wasn't aware of that.

 

[Winman]

No, Paul had just finished explaining how they were chosen for salvation and predestined because of God's love. Pretty sure Paul is speaking of a saving knowledge, however I am prone to error with my limited understanding.

What? Saving knowledge is not knowledge?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 ESV)

Yes, and the next verse explains how a man is drawn, by being taught by the Father. And what does teaching impart? KNOWLEDGE.

 

[Winman]

Winman, listen to yourself. You are becoming unglued in your argumentation.

The issue is not that man's unwillingness to see spiritual truth is rooted in a magical thing, the issue is the fact that it is rooted in man's nature naturally.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Paul said the Gentiles do "by nature" the things contained in the law. That's a good thing, where is the problem?

Winman, perhaps you should take a break......get some fresh air......do a few deep knee bends........spend some time in a social setting.......anything to clear your head.

You are now equating rejection of carrots to rejection of Jesus??!!

Yes, maybe a child has to be regenerated to eat carrots? Why not? His will is set against it, and we all know according to Calvinism he has no free will to choose otherwise. Maybe he needs to be zapped.

Christianity is supernatural by nature. It's origin is a supernatural being called The Lord God.

I agree, it is God who does the supernatural when he regenerates a man. Man's part is very "natural"- he simply believes. People believe things all the time, nothing special about that.

His Gospel is considered foolishness by the unregenerate.

That is not what 1 Cor 2:14 says. It does not mention the gospel. It is speaking of "the things of the Spirit of God" which are freely given to believers. The gospel is not mentioned once in this chapter.

The gospel is so simple a little child can understand it and be saved;

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

This verse doesn't say a person has to be regenerated to believe the gospel, it says the scriptures are ABLE to make even a child WISE unto salvation. It is knowledge that enables a person to believe.

His Son, His teachings and His disciples have caused chaos and revolutions worldwide.

Chaos? Better call Maxwell Smart.

This particular section of the Baptist Board is but one example of revolt against the status quo.

You, sir, are the status quo.

"I" am the status quo? Who knew?

 

[Jacob_Elliott]

Yes, maybe a child has to be regenerated to eat carrots? Why not? His will is set against it, and we all know according to Calvinism he has no free will to choose otherwise. Maybe he needs to be zapped.

Calvinist believe their is a choice, however the notion of free will is just silly!
Free Will-the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Hypothetically if your not predestined by God, then your still influenced by your own sinful nature, therefore you have no free will either way(not to make the choice).

 

[Winman]

Calvinist believe their is a choice, however the notion of free will is just silly!
Free Will-the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Hypothetically if your not predestined by God, then your still influenced by your own sinful nature, therefore you have no free will either way(not to make the choice).

Well, God said men DO have free will;

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

God speaking to Moses said that "any man of you" referring to the Jews could bring an offerning to him, and they were to do it of their "own voluntary will".

Now, that is FREE WILL my friend, from the mouth of God himself. So don't tell me man does not have free will.

And note also that God said it would be accepted as an atonement for him.

So, you can believe your Reformed philosophy, or you can believe the word of God, which is it?

 

[Winman]

Now, I don't quote commentators too often, I prefer to quote scripture, but I thought I would quote Charles Spurgeon for Protestant and others that think that faith is "magical" and that a man has to be supernaturally zapped to have the ability to believe the gospel.

Spurgeon agreed with me that believing the gospel is a very normal and natural thing for men to do;

Some, also, have supposed that true faith will come to men by dreams and visions. It is surprising how a belief in these things lingers still in what is called this age of light; the notion is still current that if you dream of seeing Jesus, or fancy you have seen him while awake, or if a passage of Scripture strikes you, or if you hear or imagine that you hear a voice speaking to you, you are then a believer. Now, faith in Christ is like faith in anyone else, it comes to us by the same kind of mental processes, and is based upon simple principles and plain matters of fact, and needs no vision of the night. Though you should see all the angels in heaven, it would not prove that you would go to heaven, any more than my having seen the Pope's body guard would be a proof that I shall be made a Cardinal. Things which are seen of the eye save not, for the things which are seen are temporal, and cannot work eternal salvation. Moreover, men saw Christ, and yet pierced him and blasphemed him. Visions have been seen by heathens like Nebuchadnezzar, and angels have appeared to bad men like Balaam who, though he sighed out, "Let me die the death of the righteous," yet perished, fighting against the God of Israel. True faith has a more solid basis for its fabric than the fleeting fancies of the mind.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1031.htm

As you see, Spurgeon said faith in Christ "is like faith in anyone else". It is not some magical, mystical thing as many portray it, it is not something that comes in visions or dreams.

No faith in Christ is like faith in anyone else and is based upon "the same kind of mental processes, upon simple principles and plain matters of fact", and requires no magical or mystical properties for man to believe. In fact Spurgeon implies that such a magical and mystical faith is not "true faith" at all.

So, Spurgeon agreed with me. :thumbs: