Taking the Mark of the Beast

[Reynolds]

The mark is symbolic. It represents submitting either your mind or works to antichrist.

"I'll bow to the idol and design a cake to glorify your sodomy, BUT in my heart I reject them both." That's the mark on the back of the hand. It's the number of a man. IOW, one has yielded his hands to the wisdom of man.

"It's just a cake. "

"Love your neighbor."

"Just do your job."


Can one be saved? Of course. Thomas Bilney recanted the doctrine of grace under pressure, but because he was of the elect, repented and went to the stake.

All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven.

How does symbolism prevent those without it from Buying or selling?

 

[1689Dave]

And JESUS said JTB was Elijah (Or Elias in Greek-not to be confused with the Elias of Abraham's time)

Jesus referred to the LITERAL temple more than once. He referred to His body as 'this temple' to Jews who didn't believe He is Messiah.
Now, I didn't say Scripture has NO symbolism. but it's pretty easy to interpret, and it ALWAYS stands for something LITERAL. For instance, the 'mark of the beast' stands for a literal microchip, which was unknown to John or any other human at that time. For generations, people thought it was a tattoo, etc. forgetting such marks can easily be removed, altered, or duped. Now, as the fulfillment of eschatology isn't far-off, and knowledge is increasing as per the prophecy, we know what the mark will be.

Are you going to sacrifice animals in the supposed third temple? = Unforgivable sin according to Hebrews 6. Have you already committed it by planning to?

 

[1689Dave]

How does symbolism prevent those without it from Buying or selling?

Have you considered Obama's pro sodomite laws that put Christian businesses out of work? Unless they comply (receive the Mark) they could not buy or sell. All who endorsed the laws received the Mark. That's how it works.

 

[Baptist Believer]

But Scripture says they'll be in the LOF FOREVER.

That simply means they will not come out from it. It is an image of permanence, straight from the Old Testament.

--
QUICK BACKGROUND:
The prophets, Jesus, and NT Writers generally use five images of Divine Judgment:
(1) The Cleansing of the World from the Ungodly By the Flood - Genesis 7:21-23 – All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. (Compare with 2 Peter 2:5-6)

(2) Destruction of the Ungodly in Sodom and Gomorrah -
Genesis 19:24-25 – Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
(Compare with 2 Peter 2:5-6)

(3) Destruction of Edom
(Edom also represents the ungodly nations of the world (see Isaiah 34:2) - Isaiah 34:5, 9-10 – For My sword is satiated in heaven; Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom; And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction. Its streams will be turned into pitch; And its loose earth into brimstone; And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. (Compare with Revelation 14:11)

(4) Destruction and Slaughter of Jerusalem by the Babylonians - Jerimiah 7:30-34 – For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight,” declares the Lord, “they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind. Therefore, behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place. The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away. Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin. (Compare with Isaiah 66:22-24, Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-48)

(5) Final Destruction of the Enemies of God at the End of the Age - Isaiah 66:22-24 – “For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord, “So your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from new moon to new moon; And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord. “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
(Compare with Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-48)
--

Now let's look back at the passage to which you alluded:

Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

First, let's take inventory of what will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Go back at look at what I highlighted in green. In my opinion, the devil is not human, nor the beast or the false prophet -- the beast and false prophet represent systems of humanity. In your view, as I understand it, you believe the devil is not human, but the beast and false prophets are likely specific humans, not representatives. In any case, according to both of our views, the sentence in red, "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" applies to those persons. But if we continue, we see non-human "things" thrown into the Lake of Fire, namely "death" and "Hades." I do not think of death as a person, and Hades (the abode of the dead) is definitely not a person, but they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. I don't think death can be tormented, and I believe we both agree that Hades (a location) cannot be tormented, so that's a huge tip-off that there is symbolism at work here. Moreover, there is no specific mention that there is torment for any one/thing past verse 10. One can make an assumption that the Lake of Fire has been established as a place where torment happens, but that falls apart when dealing with death and Hades. Very shortly after these words, John tells us "there will no longer be any death" (Revelation 21:4). He didn't say that death was being tormented, but the idea of the Lake of Fire is that it is like an incinerator/furnace that destroys things that are unneeded or unwanted. This ties directly into the parables of Jesus about the final stage of the tares (Matthew 13:30, 40-43) -- in fact, that parable foreshadows Revelation 20-21. In the same passage in Matthew 13, Jesus continues with the furnace metaphor, using the image of good and bad fish (see Matthew 13:47-50). The workers sort the good fish from the bad, but the bad fish are thrown into a furnace (!) instead of being thrown back into the water like one might expect.

After saying all of that, let's deal with your concern about the use of the word "forever." As I demonstrated previously, biblical writers tend to use five images of judgment. Go back and look at the third image of judgment, the judgment on Edom. I highlighted in blue the use of the "forever" imagery. The idiom there is used to emphasize finality and completeness, not to literally make a claim that smoke never ends, only that the fire will not be quenched (prematurely extinguished) before it has consumed everything that there is to burn. If you disagree, please show me where to find Edom today. It should be easy to see, since there will be a huge column of smoke ascending to the heavens.

Does that help you?

 

[1689Dave]

No, Jesus did NOT teach that.

Was not the Rev given directly by Jesus, or angels under His auspices? The millenium isn't mentioned til Rev. 20, and that's ALL that Jesus taught in relationship to it.

Do you know what Amillennialism is? What did he teach if not that? BTW Amillennialism means No Millennium.

 

[1689Dave]

And JESUS said JTB was Elijah (Or Elias in Greek-not to be confused with the Elias of Abraham's time)

Jesus referred to the LITERAL temple more than once. He referred to His body as 'this temple' to Jews who didn't believe He is Messiah.
Now, I didn't say Scripture has NO symbolism. but it's pretty easy to interpret, and it ALWAYS stands for something LITERAL. For instance, the 'mark of the beast' stands for a literal microchip, which was unknown to John or any other human at that time. For generations, people thought it was a tattoo, etc. forgetting such marks can easily be removed, altered, or duped. Now, as the fulfillment of eschatology isn't far-off, and knowledge is increasing as per the prophecy, we know what the mark will be.

The reason you look for literal fulfillment in the future is that you cannot see it now. Why can't you see it? Because you are listening to the Pharisees and not Him.

 

[Baptist Believer]

God gave the warnings to be passed on to future generations.

Remember, there's been NO marka the beast yet, as history proves.

Many people have taken the mark. They are even taking it today when Christians give their allegiance to political figures over Jesus.

In the days of the writing of Revelation, it is the people who consented to say that "Caesar was lord" (divine) instead of "Jesus is Lord." In the 1930s-40s, it was Christians who were glad to shout, "Heil, Hitler," a throwback to Caesar worship (aka "Hail, Caesar")

Then, as is today, it is one who is willing to betray Jesus to give full allegiance to a political figure.

 

[robycop3]

Are you going to sacrifice animals in the supposed third temple? = Unforgivable sin according to Hebrews 6. Have you already committed it by planning to?

How silly can ya get? I'm not a Jew.

 

[Aaron]

The marka the beast . . . be some sorta microchip containing all of one's personal info and financial records. it'll be used to conduct business in place of cash or the current cards. One will be paid in it, replacing direct deposit in banx.

And Scripture says ALL who take that mark will be condemned.

So, not literally a mark.

 

[robycop3]

That simply means they will not come out from it. It is an image of permanence, straight from the Old Testament.

--
QUICK BACKGROUND:
The prophets, Jesus, and NT Writers generally use five images of Divine Judgment:
(1) The Cleansing of the World from the Ungodly By the Flood - Genesis 7:21-23 – All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. (Compare with 2 Peter 2:5-6)

(2) Destruction of the Ungodly in Sodom and Gomorrah -
Genesis 19:24-25 – Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
(Compare with 2 Peter 2:5-6)

(3) Destruction of Edom
(Edom also represents the ungodly nations of the world (see Isaiah 34:2) - Isaiah 34:5, 9-10 – For My sword is satiated in heaven; Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom; And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction. Its streams will be turned into pitch; And its loose earth into brimstone; And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. (Compare with Revelation 14:11)

(4) Destruction and Slaughter of Jerusalem by the Babylonians - Jerimiah 7:30-34 – For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight,” declares the Lord, “they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind. Therefore, behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place. The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away. Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin. (Compare with Isaiah 66:22-24, Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-48)

(5) Final Destruction of the Enemies of God at the End of the Age - Isaiah 66:22-24 – “For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord, “So your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from new moon to new moon; And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord. “Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
(Compare with Matthew 18:8-9 and Mark 9:43-48)
--

Now let's look back at the passage to which you alluded:

Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

First, let's take inventory of what will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Go back at look at what I highlighted in green. In my opinion, the devil is not human, nor the beast or the false prophet -- the beast and false prophet represent systems of humanity. In your view, as I understand it, you believe the devil is not human, but the beast and false prophets are likely specific humans, not representatives. In any case, according to both of our views, the sentence in red, "They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" applies to those persons. But if we continue, we see non-human "things" thrown into the Lake of Fire, namely "death" and "Hades." I do not think of death as a person, and Hades (the abode of the dead) is definitely not a person, but they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. I don't think death can be tormented, and I believe we both agree that Hades (a location) cannot be tormented, so that's a huge tip-off that there is symbolism at work here. Moreover, there is no specific mention that there is torment for any one/thing past verse 10. One can make an assumption that the Lake of Fire has been established as a place where torment happens, but that falls apart when dealing with death and Hades. Very shortly after these words, John tells us "there will no longer be any death" (Revelation 21:4). He didn't say that death was being tormented, but the idea of the Lake of Fire is that it is like an incinerator/furnace that destroys things that are unneeded or unwanted. This ties directly into the parables of Jesus about the final stage of the tares (Matthew 13:30, 40-43) -- in fact, that parable foreshadows Revelation 20-21. In the same passage in Matthew 13, Jesus continues with the furnace metaphor, using the image of good and bad fish (see Matthew 13:47-50). The workers sort the good fish from the bad, but the bad fish are thrown into a furnace (!) instead of being thrown back into the water like one might expect.

After saying all of that, let's deal with your concern about the use of the word "forever." As I demonstrated previously, biblical writers tend to use five images of judgment. Go back and look at the third image of judgment, the judgment on Edom. I highlighted in blue the use of the "forever" imagery. The idiom there is used to emphasize finality and completeness, not to literally make a claim that smoke never ends, only that the fire will not be quenched (prematurely extinguished) before it has consumed everything that there is to burn. If you disagree, please show me where to find Edom today. It should be easy to see, since there will be a huge column of smoke ascending to the heavens.

Does that help you?

Rev. 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

[Aaron]

Many people have taken the mark. They are even taking it today when Christians give their allegiance to political figures over Jesus.

Or to any cause, even social justice.

 

[robycop3]

Do you know what Amillennialism is? What did he teach if not that? BTW Amillennialism means No Millennium.

And I just showed you He did NOT teach that !

 

[robycop3]

The reason you look for literal fulfillment in the future is that you cannot see it now. Why can't you see it? Because you are listening to the Pharisees and not Him.

How silly. I know history and you don't. otherwise you'd know the eschatological events have NOT yet occurred. And you say you're not a preterist ?

 

[robycop3]

Many people have taken the mark. They are even taking it today when Christians give their allegiance to political figures over Jesus.

In the days of the writing of Revelation, it is the people who consented to say that "Caesar was lord" (divine) instead of "Jesus is Lord." In the 1930s-40s, it was Christians who were glad to shout, "Heil, Hitler," a throwback to Caesar worship (aka "Hail, Caesar")

Then, as is today, it is one who is willing to betray Jesus to give full allegiance to a political figure.

No, no one has taken that mark because it doesn't yet exist.

Think it's symbolic? Then, please answer Reynolds' question in post #61.

 

[robycop3]

So, not literally a mark.

Yes, it is.There'll likely be a visible mark or scar where the MC is implanted.

 

[robycop3]

Or to any cause, even social justice.

Horse Feathers !

 

[MB]

If you take the mark of the Beast - will it be possible to still be saved during the tribulation?


NOTE: This is NOT a discussion of when the Tribulation will happen (ie pre,mid, post, A trib)

I believe all those who receive the mark of the Beast will burn in Hell.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

MB

 

[Baptist Believer]

Rev. 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Right, it is an idiom drawn from the prophecy against Edom.

It's in the 3rd Image of Divine Judgment in the response you quoted:

It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.​

Please show me the literal smoldering ruin of Edom in the present day. If you can do that, then I will need to consider your literal interpretation.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Or to any cause, even social justice.

It can be, if social justice becomes more important than Jesus.

However, Jesus called us to work for justice wherever we are, so we are sinning when we don't engage in social justice.

 

[Yeshua1]

Many Baptists believe in the destruction of the wicked in the Lake of Fire, since the text plainly states, "This is the second death." (see Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14-15; 21:8). The belief that human beings survive in the Lake of Fire runs counter to the meaning of the image, as well as all the places in the Bible that speaks of "eternal life" being exclusively for God's people. There are only a couple of questionable "proof texts" for eternal conscious torment, while there are hundreds for conditional mortality.

I do not look to JWs and SDAs for theology. Their views are different from mine.

Eternal Hell as been seen as being the prominent Baptist view and is the orthodox view!