ten-reasons-to-not-ask-jesus-into-your-heart-0

[Internet Theologian]

No your going by your indoctrination and beliefs about God. God must fit into your box, where as God in His Sovereignty deals with mankind by His attributes.

OK, elaborate or start another thread on how this is done. And leave off the slanderous remarks, and back up your accusations as I have. Not one thing I stated concerning you was unfounded nor untrue. Many have called you on this, we're not all wrong, just going by what we see you teaching.

Now, either elaborate or start another thread addressing your accusation.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I agreed with your conclusion, but was asking you a question. I asked how MWC's idea that God must be just differs from the Calvinistic doctrine that God must be just. If you are unable to answer that's fine. Just say so.

But you need to stop the asinine and foolish insults when people ask questions of you. I am asking how his view of divine justice differs from yours.

The asininity came from you as you dressed down Calvinists and falsely accused them. If you are unable to own it, then just say so.

You didn't ask anything, btw, you simply accused and assumed you had some ammo against the brothers on here. You're being disingenuous, it was designed to be derogatory in nature.

I say you are confused, and you are, as you have many straw man you've erected. Several have nailed you on this.

 

[JonC]

The asininity came from you as you dressed down Calvinists and falsely accused them. If you are unable to own it, then just say so.

You didn't ask anything, btw, you simply accused and assumed you had some ammo against the brothers on here. You're being disingenuous, it was designed to be derogatory in nature.

I say you are confused, and you are, as you have many straw man you've erected. Several have nailed you on this.

I take it that this means you cannot or will not answer.

It was both a legitimate and fair question, IT. I was not attacking you or your position (I actually agree with you, as I stated, but I do not see how the comment in question held to another view of divine justice. I was asking.

 

[Internet Theologian]

For the record, I have stated you are confused in your understanding.

I've received back for this that I am asinine, foolish and ignorant. Is that inappropriate behavior as well?

I will reiterate to you jon, that you are confused in what you stated and claimed. Your accusation was in no way a form of a question. It is also unfounded in its accusations.

 

[JonC]

For the record, I have stated you are confused in your understanding.

I've received back for this that I am asinine, foolish and ignorant. Is that inappropriate behavior as well?

I will reiterate to you jon, that you are confused in what you stated and claimed. Your accusation was in no way a form of a question. It is also unfounded in its accusations.

No. Your comments were asinine and foolish. I was asking you a legitimate question. I was not attacking Calvinism or some straw man. I noted that often people attack when questioned because they have no answer (they are ignorant of the answer so they throw a tantrum).

The only thing I've accused you personally of being here is inappropriate.

 

[Internet Theologian]

No.

OK.

 

[revmwc]

God can do as He pleases, however if He is just and true as Deuteronomy 32:4 He is a God of truth and without iniquity just and right is He. So if He gives faith to some and not to others while allowing men by there free will to willfully reject Him does that not bring into question His being a just God as scripture says?

For all this what my post #28 stated. Then IT answered

mwc,

Once again, you have created a god to your own liking. He must fit into what you believe to be fair and just or he cannot be your God. If he does fit into what you believe to be fair and just, then you will bow down and worship what you've fashioned in your mind. This is what man has done since the dawn of time, thoughtfully giving attributes to wood, stone, brass, silver and gold, then worshiping this 'image'. This my friend is none other than classic idolatry.

Now notice mine has a question in it, "So if He gives faith to some and not to others while allowing men by there free will to willfully reject Him does that not bring into question His being a just God as scripture says?"
To which the false accusation of IT came in the quote above. I ask where have I created a God of my own liking in post #28? I stated what Deuteronomy says God is, Deuteronomy 32:4 He is a God of truth and without iniquity just and right is He. and then ask a question, that question is just that a question, not making God anything, Deuteronomy makes Him a God of Truth and a Just God, so what does Just mean and how is quoting scripture classic idolatry?

 

[revmwc]

I am only going by your own logic presented here. You have laid claim to what God must be in order to be just and fair, note your post in post #28:



Others have called you on this as well, and have addressed thte same error, 'accusing' you of the same.

Note this post that addresses your belief in the same manner:



There are more posts that do the same from others toward your position. You put your beliefs out there, then handle the repercussions of your error without the accusations and slanderous comment.

IOW don't go around calling me a liar. That is one thing I don't tolerate from any person and is not one thing I practice. Thanks.

Questions about what is being stated are not stating a position but asking a question concerning what someonelse has stated as their belief, question are how we learn about that position, yet instead of answering the question accusations come calling someone an idolator, accusing them of gross sin.

 

[Internet Theologian]

OK.

For all this what my post #28 stated. Then IT answered



Now notice mine has a question in it, "So if He gives faith to some and not to others while allowing men by there free will to willfully reject Him does that not bring into question His being a just God as scripture says?"
To which the false accusation of IT came in the quote above. I ask where have I created a God of my own liking in post #28? I stated what Deuteronomy says God is, Deuteronomy 32:4 He is a God of truth and without iniquity just and right is He. and then ask a question, that question is just that a question, not making God anything, Deuteronomy makes Him a God of Truth and a Just God, so what does Just mean and how is quoting scripture classic idolatry?

I'll allow the others to address you on this mwc.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree with you, IT, in the position that you take with salvation being entirely the work of God. But there also seems to be an inconsistency (or at least an area which needs explanation), regarding this justice.

It seems to me that you are accusing (or approaching that accusation) MWC of idolatry because he fits God into what he believes to be fair and just. I agree with you that the doctrine he holds approaches that (if taken to it's logical conclusion). But at the same time, many Calvinists argue that God must punish the wicked because not to do so would be unjust (God's justice must be satisfied) and therefore he satisfies that demand for justice by pouring out his wrath on his Son so that he can forgive men (and remain just). I am not sure that MWC is holding such a different view of justice and fairness here. How do you see it differently?

I know you didn't ask me this question, JonC, but perhaps I can try to answer it.

The only way that we can fathom the justice of God is through the Scriptures in which He has revealed Himself. Revmwc believes that God would be unjust if He gave faith to some but not to others. The Scriptures answer him: 'As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion"........' (Romans 9:14ff). There is no injustice in God having mercy upon one set of hell-deserving sinners and not on another set so long as justice is not set aside.

That leads to your question concerning God's holiness and justice. Psalm 7:11 states: 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.' So God's anger against not just sin, but sinners, is not something impulsive, but a steady, continuing displeasure, and it is right that it should be so, because God is a just judge. Proverbs 17:15 states: 'He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just; both of them are an abomination to the LORD.' So God cannot declare the wicked righteous, but must punish them. Therefore it was necessary, in order for God to pardon His elect, that the Lord Jesus Christ should take their sins upon Himself and pay the penalty of them 'that [God] might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Romans 3:26; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Does that answer your question?

 

[revmwc]

I know you didn't ask me this question, JonC, but perhaps I can try to answer it.

The only way that we can fathom the justice of God is through the Scriptures in which He has revealed Himself. Revmwc believes that God would be unjust if He gave faith to some but not to others. The Scriptures answer him: 'As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion"........' (Romans 9:14ff). There is no injustice in God having mercy upon one set of hell-deserving sinners and not on another set so long as justice is not set aside.

That leads to your question concerning God's holiness and justice. Psalm 7:11 states: 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.' So God's anger against not just sin, but sinners, is not something impulsive, but a steady, continuing displeasure, and it is right that it should be so, because God is a just judge. Proverbs 17:15 states: 'He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just; both of them are an abomination to the LORD.' So God cannot declare the wicked righteous, but must punish them. Therefore it was necessary, in order for God to pardon His elect, that the Lord Jesus Christ should take their sins upon Himself and pay the penalty of them 'that [God] might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Romans 3:26; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Does that answer your question?

But then you ask why He loved Jacob and hated Esau? Was it because He knew them beforehand? If that be true then did Esau have every chance to believe just as Jacob? Doesn't every unrighteous person have every chance to receive the Savior? Thus God has given every person the ability to be saved and yet some believe and others reject of their own volition after being convicted by the Holy Spirit?

 

[JonC]

I know you didn't ask me this question, JonC, but perhaps I can try to answer it.

The only way that we can fathom the justice of God is through the Scriptures in which He has revealed Himself. Revmwc believes that God would be unjust if He gave faith to some but not to others. The Scriptures answer him: 'As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion"........' (Romans 9:14ff). There is no injustice in God having mercy upon one set of hell-deserving sinners and not on another set so long as justice is not set aside.

That leads to your question concerning God's holiness and justice. Psalm 7:11 states: 'God is a just judge, and God is angry with sinners every day.' So God's anger against not just sin, but sinners, is not something impulsive, but a steady, continuing displeasure, and it is right that it should be so, because God is a just judge. Proverbs 17:15 states: 'He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just; both of them are an abomination to the LORD.' So God cannot declare the wicked righteous, but must punish them. Therefore it was necessary, in order for God to pardon His elect, that the Lord Jesus Christ should take their sins upon Himself and pay the penalty of them 'that [God] might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus' (Romans 3:26; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Does that answer your question?

Yes, and thank you for the reply. I agree that there is no injustice with God, and I also agree with you that God is not unjust to save one person but not another (in fact, we agree completely on this issue).

I still do not see the issue itself being one of justice (but rather one of mercy....God will have mercy on who he will...and that isn't unjust). Instead of looking through this with the lens of divine justice, I have been looking at it through the lens of God's "Creatorship" (as you point out, Romans 9:14).

My question is in part that I do see Calvinism and mwc as holding the same idea that divine justice must be done. The difference is that mwc seems to hold justice as something binding God whereas Calvinism (and I) view divine justice as an attribute of God (God is not bound by justice...God IS just). As such, what God does defines what justice is. But we all believe that God does not act unjustly.

The reason, I believe, that God's salvation of a people out of a multitude is not an issue of being unjust is because of the Atonement. We are purchased with a price, bought. The consequences of sin were not unjustly ignored by God. The Father sent his Son as a guilt offering. The Son lay down his life for the sheep. Jesus bore our sins. We are bought with a price.

 

[revmwc]

Revelation 3:19-20, Christ rebukes those He loves. If anyone hasn’t been rebuked, hasn’t been chastened by Christ they need to check up on their salvation and make sure it is by “Grace through Faith”. Christ rebuked them out of love just as He does for all who have truly received Him as their savior. Christ loved their souls hated their sin but loved their souls. They needed only to comply to His rebuke and chastening of them as believers. Christ is knocking at the door for them. Christ continues to deal with them in Grace. Those who were saved and in Operational death, they must repent and come to Him and He will sup with them. Anyone who hasn’t trusted Him can come to Him and sup with Him. But there is no wholesale revival in this church of the rights of the people. No major turning or returning to Christ, it is near death except for a small remnant… Christ finds a door closed against Him in the heart of the sinning believer. But when He finds that heart shut He continues to knock. Paul’s teaching to Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:3 is seen here in the Laodicean church. That time has come! How many are flocking to churches where they don’t have the truth, they don’t endure sound doctrine. Christ knocks in vain to so many. But they refuse to let Him in and therefore remain in Operational Death, they are failing to operate under the Filling of the Spirit because they refuse to confess their sins and allow Him to sup with them.

 

[revmwc]

Yes, and thank you for the reply. I agree that there is no injustice with God, and I also agree with you that God is not unjust to save one person but not another (in fact, we agree completely on this issue).

I still do not see the issue itself being one of justice (but rather one of mercy....God will have mercy on who he will...and that isn't unjust). Instead of looking through this with the lens of divine justice, I have been looking at it through the lens of God's "Creatorship" (as you point out, Romans 9:14).

My question is in part that I do see Calvinism and mwc as holding the same idea that divine justice must be done. The difference is that mwc seems to hold justice as something binding God whereas Calvinism (and I) view divine justice as an attribute of God (God is not bound by justice...God IS just). As such, what God does defines what justice is. But we all believe that God does not act unjustly.

The reason, I believe, that God's salvation of a people out of a multitude is not an issue of being unjust is because of the Atonement. We are purchased with a price, bought. The consequences of sin were not unjustly ignored by God. The Father sent his Son as a guilt offering. The Son lay down his life for the sheep. Jesus bore our sins. We are bought with a price.

My question is not dealing with binding God to a set of standards. Does God have a set of standards He has given to us? If so would His standards be different from those He holds us too? In other words when Christ says for instance what we see in John 3:18 is He saying that some will because God gave them Faith believe and yet the others who don't believe and are condemned by that unbelief do so by their own volition, or does God allow all to by volition to make a choice to believe or reject? God is not bound to any standards and yet what does it mean to be just as Deuteronomy state? The Hebrew is

Tsaddiyq= tsad-deek’=just, lawful, righteous, just, righteous in government, just, right in one’s cause, just righteous in conduct and character, righteous as justified and vindicated by God, right, correct, lawful. So god in everything He does is right and lawful, what is right and lawful well the 10 commandments are part of that standard. Proverbs gives more things, Proverbs 6:
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

These are His Standards, but wait if Jesus and for that matter Paul stated that one must believe and yet God doesn't allow the unregenerate to come then what would that make Jesus and Paul?
Romans 10:13 says Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved, so is the whosoever limited to just those God allows? 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Notice Jesus died once for sin, it doesn't limit the Atonement here does it, He died once for sin whose sin, well according to other scripture we see what He has done,
1 Peter 1:
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We see this too "ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit" It appears believers have purified their souls in obeying the truth, what is the Truth that we have obeyed,
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Again and again the command is believe, was the jailer already regenerated at this point before He believed, or di he obey the truth throught the conviction of the Spirit?

 

[JonC]

My question is not dealing with binding God to a set of standards. Does God have a set of standards He has given to us? If so would His standards be different from those He holds us too? In other words when Christ says for instance what we see in John 3:18 is He saying that some will because God gave them Faith believe and yet the others who don't believe and are condemned by that unbelief do so by their own volition, or does God allow all to by volition to make a choice to believe or reject? God is not bound to any standards and yet what does it mean to be just as Deuteronomy state? The Hebrew is...

The problem is that the nature of you question is dealing with binding God to a set of standards. If it were not, then then the justness of God would not have entered the discussion. The question should be whether or not God did something (conditional vs. unconditional election, perhaps), not if by doing it God would be unjust (by definition, if God does it it is just).

 

[revmwc]

The problem is that the nature of you question is dealing with binding God to a set of standards. If it were not, then then the justness of God would not have entered the discussion. The question should be whether or not God did something (conditional vs. unconditional election, perhaps), not if by doing it God would be unjust (by definition, if God does it it is just).

So God set standards for mankind and holds them to those standards, so then Is God bound to those standards Himself or just man? Is that binding God?

 

[go2church]

Here's the problem. The heart is desperately wicked and who can know it?[Jeremiah 17:9] Yet ppl on here aver that asking Christ into your heart is founded upon scripture? Only God can change the heart of sinners from hating Him to loving Him...from being His enemies to being reconciled. The hearts of the unregenerate are wicked, hate all things God. And yet they can ask God to come into that wicked, God-hating heart?

Here's the problem...your answer is responding to something I didn't say. Trying again, Describing the fullness of salvation can be hard. God is able to save, even when don't get the words "exactly right" because God is able to examine the heart, the intent, the motives of the individual.

Demanding a specific kind of response instead of celebrating and discipling someone who tells you "they asked Jesus into their heart" is formulaic at best, Pharisaical at worst. God doesn't need you protecting salvation.

 

[Benjamin]

For all this what my post #28 stated. Then IT answered



Now notice mine has a question in it, "So if He gives faith to some and not to others while allowing men by there free will to willfully reject Him does that not bring into question His being a just God as scripture says?"
To which the false accusation of IT came in the quote above. I ask where have I created a God of my own liking in post #28? I stated what Deuteronomy says God is, Deuteronomy 32:4 He is a God of truth and without iniquity just and right is He. and then ask a question, that question is just that a question, not making God anything, Deuteronomy makes Him a God of Truth and a Just God, so what does Just mean and how is quoting scripture classic idolatry?

Cool Good verse which absolutely destroys the Calvinist's/Determinist's view that God must force Himself into one's heart with the truth that He is a just God of judgment.

 

[revmwc]

The problem is that the nature of you question is dealing with binding God to a set of standards. If it were not, then then the justness of God would not have entered the discussion. The question should be whether or not God did something (conditional vs. unconditional election, perhaps), not if by doing it God would be unjust (by definition, if God does it it is just).

Now what about Jesus could He have violated the Ten Commandments and still be the perfect sacrifice, He was after all God, did He have standards was He just and true? Did He as God meet certain standards or do we bond Him in asking these questions?

 

[JonC]

So God set standards for mankind and holds them to those standards, so then Is God bound to those standards Himself or just man? Is that binding God?

No. God is the standard. All of those laws and commandments were not just ruled to follow. They reveal to us God's own nature.

God cannot lie. That does not mean that God is has bound Himself to not lying but that he is defined by truth.

Man cannot of his nature choose God. That does not mean that the choice is not freely made, but that men are not willing.

Sent from my TARDIS