ten-reasons-to-not-ask-jesus-into-your-heart-0

[TCassidy]

When we believe

So, unbelievers believe?

 

[revmwc]

Exactly.


You just contradicted yourself. You say they are regenerated (born again, saved) AFTER they believe. So which is it? Do they have saving faith while they are lost or not?
So now you are saying they have saving faith while still lost and only then do they receive salvation?

Salvation = regeneration

So, unbelievers believe?

weren't we all unbelievers at one time so did you believe as an unbeliever?

 

[TCassidy]

weren't we all unbelievers at one time

Yes.

did you believe as an unbeliever?

No.

 

[TCassidy]

Salvation = regeneration

Yes, that is what I said. If a person has to believe before they are saved you have unsaved people with saving faith. Right?

 

[JonC]

But you did do something to receive physical life, you breathed in you en pneumaed (sic), that is breathed in had you not the gift of life would not have been yours. Of course we use our salvation, we use to accomplish God's will and way, we use it to Gain rewards in Heaven, rewards of intrinsic value.

I didn't choose to breathe so that I would have physical life. I breathed because I had been given physical life. Smile

 

[SovereignGrace]

I agreed with your conclusion, but was asking you a question. I asked how MWC's idea that God must be just differs from the Calvinistic doctrine that God must be just. If you are unable to answer that's fine. Just say so.

But you need to stop the asinine and foolish insults when people ask questions of you. When you do things like this it looks as if it's a defense tactic to hide ignorance. I am asking how his view of divine justice differs from yours, not challenging you to a battle of insults. How is his understanding that God must be just idolatry when Calvinists also believe that God must be just (I also believe that God is just)?

Ah!! That 'non-agenda agenda'. Consistency's the key, eh?

 

[TCassidy]

Ah!! That 'non-agenda agenda'. Consistency's the key, eh?

When Jon asked "how his view of divine justice differs from yours" why don't you just answer him? I did and it didn't cause me to lose my salvation or anything!

 

[SovereignGrace]

But then you ask why He loved Jacob and hated Esau? Was it because He knew them beforehand? If that be true then did Esau have every chance to believe just as Jacob? Doesn't every unrighteous person have every chance to receive the Savior? Thus God has given every person the ability to be saved and yet some believe and others reject of their own volition after being convicted by the Holy Spirit?

There is nothing, I reiterate...NOTHING in man that causes God to love anyone. He loves those He loves because He loves them. That is what He said about Israel.

 

[JonC]

Ah!! That 'non-agenda agenda'. Consistency's the key, eh?

The key is that God is just (not that God must be just). That 's the consistency. When we start judging God by what we would consider just, or unjust....well, then we are making a God look suspiciously like our ideal man.

And God is not unjust when he saves a people out of the world as his particular possession. God is not unjust when he condemns those who reject him. God was not unjust when he sent his Son as a guilt offering for us. God was not unjust when he put on humanity and bore our sins in his flesh.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They wouldn't be lost with faith. They aren't regenerated until they by their volition believe that is come to Him by faith. That Faith comes when they hear and are convicted, then they receive salvation.

Man was created and had volition. Once Adam sinned, that volition was became bound to their nature.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Exactly.


You just contradicted yourself. You say they are regenerated (born again, saved) AFTER they believe. So which is it? Do they have saving faith while they are lost or not?
So now you are saying they have saving faith while still lost and only then do they receive salvation?

That's his theology in a nut shell. He is all over the place. He states one thing, then says something else that contradicts his previous statement.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Salvation = regeneration

This is where Bro. TC & I disagree. Regeneration leads to salvation. One is quickened, given God-given faith and God-given repentance and this leads to salvation. But I see regeneration leading to salvation and not the same thing. But it's sorta like 'bam bam' quicker than a blinking eye.

weren't we all unbelievers at one time?

Exactly.

so did you believe as an unbeliever?

Nope. How can a non-believer believe?

 

[JonC]

I've seen this song and dance before is what I'm saying. Others have noticed this on here, too.

Do you not see what I am saying??? There is a difference SG. I edited the post for clarity, but will state again here.

When the argument gets to the point of discussing whether or not God must "play by the rules" or be "fair" or "just" then we are straying from reality because we are missing the main point. God IS just...PERIOD. That is my view in opposition to the view that God must act in accordance to men's understanding of justice. So for me, anything and everything God does is just because God IS just.

If you want to offer your view and how it differs, then please do so. Otherwise, I really am not sure why you addressed my question. Typically when someone asks a simple question, like "how is your view of divine justice different from his?" someone replies with an answer instead of beating around the bush...or insulting the questioner.

Now, if you simply want to continue an agenda of stating I am anti-Reformed simply because we disagree on a few doctrines (the separation of the Father and Son on the Cross, gentiles being under the Law of Moses, and the exact sense to which Christ was punished for our sins....I think that's about it..) then please just write it in a notebook and save it for sometime we meet. But doing it here is trolling.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you not see what I am saying??? There is a difference SG. I edited the post for clarity, but will state again here.

When the discussion goes into discussing whether or not God must "play by the rules" or be "fair" or "just" then we are loosing argument because we are missing the main point. God IS just...PERIOD.

Now, if you simply want to continue an agenda of stating I am anti-Reformed simply because we disagree on a few doctrines (the separation of the Father and Son on the Cross, gentiles being under the Law of Moses, and the exact sense to which Christ was punished for our sins....I think that's about it..) then please just write it in a notebook and save it for sometime we meet. But doing it here is trolling.

And I stated God IS just because He IS just. He can not be unjust.

 

[JonC]

And I stated God IS just because He IS just. He can not be unjust.

Now...wouldn't "JonC, I agree" have been much easier a response?

What I was getting at (trying to get at) with IT early on was that all sides believes that God acts justly. We all believe that it is impossible for God to be unjust. The difference is that you and I believe that God does so because God is just. Not because he has established a rule that He must now follow (He can't do X because X is unjust...when if God did X then X would be just by definition not of justice but of God).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But then you ask why He loved Jacob and hated Esau? Was it because He knew them beforehand? If that be true then did Esau have every chance to believe just as Jacob? Doesn't every unrighteous person have every chance to receive the Savior? Thus God has given every person the ability to be saved and yet some believe and others reject of their own volition after being convicted by the Holy Spirit?

The question is not why God should have hated Esau; there are ever so many reasons why He might have done that. The question is why God should have loved Jacob.

 

[JonC]

The question is not why God should have hated Esau; there are ever so many reasons why He might have done that. The question is why God should have loved Jacob.

Amen!!!

I wonder sometimes why we stumble so much over why God does not save some who reject him instead of kneeling in awe that he saved us. I certainly did not deserve His grace.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now...wouldn't "JonC, I agree" have been much easier a response?

What I was getting at (trying to get at) with IT early on was that all sides believes that God acts justly. We all believe that it is impossible for God to be unjust. The difference is that you and I believe that God does so because God is just. Not because he has established a rule that He must now follow (He can't do X because X is unjust...when if God did X then X would be just by definition not of justice but of God).

I agree with this post, but IT does believe God acts justly because He is just, too.

 

[JonC]

I agree with this post, but IT does believe God acts justly because He is just, too.

I don't know what IT believes. That is why I was asking.

(His "rating" indicates otherwise, but I suspect he agrees with us. I just don't make assumptions or take people's word for what a person believes. That would be....unjust ).

I've said before, people need to learn to state plainly (as best they can) what they believe and stop making assumptions. Even people with the same view may have different understandings when you get down to it. We need to stop being afraid of answering questions, stop hiding behind titles of doctrines and "isms" and plainly discuss what we believe. And we need to be able to do so in brotherly love, not insults and attacks.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't know what IT believes. That is why I was asking.

(His "rating" indicates otherwise, but I suspect he agrees with us. I just don't make assumptions or take people's word for what a person believes. That would be....unjust ).

In regards to God's justice. Just like us.