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So, unbelievers believe?

 

Yes.

No.

 

Yes, that is what I said. If a person has to believe before they are saved you have unsaved people with saving faith. Right?

 

I didn't choose to breathe so that I would have physical life. I breathed because I had been given physical life. Smile

 

When Jon asked "how his view of divine justice differs from yours" why don't you just answer him? I did and it didn't cause me to lose my salvation or anything!

 

The key is that God is just (not that God must be just). That 's the consistency. When we start judging God by what we would consider just, or unjust....well, then we are making a God look suspiciously like our ideal man.

And God is not unjust when he saves a people out of the world as his particular possession. God is not unjust when he condemns those who reject him. God was not unjust when he sent his Son as a guilt offering for us. God was not unjust when he put on humanity and bore our sins in his flesh.

 

Do you not see what I am saying??? There is a difference SG. I edited the post for clarity, but will state again here.

When the argument gets to the point of discussing whether or not God must "play by the rules" or be "fair" or "just" then we are straying from reality because we are missing the main point. God IS just...PERIOD. That is my view in opposition to the view that God must act in accordance to men's understanding of justice. So for me, anything and everything God does is just because God IS just.

If you want to offer your view and how it differs, then please do so. Otherwise, I really am not sure why you addressed my question. Typically when someone asks a simple question, like "how is your view of divine justice different from his?" someone replies with an answer instead of beating around the bush...or insulting the questioner.

Now, if you simply want to continue an agenda of stating I am anti-Reformed simply because we disagree on a few doctrines (the separation of the Father and Son on the Cross, gentiles being under the Law of Moses, and the exact sense to which Christ was punished for our sins....I think that's about it..) then please just write it in a notebook and save it for sometime we meet. But doing it here is trolling.

 

Now...wouldn't "JonC, I agree" have been much easier a response?

What I was getting at (trying to get at) with IT early on was that all sides believes that God acts justly. We all believe that it is impossible for God to be unjust. The difference is that you and I believe that God does so because God is just. Not because he has established a rule that He must now follow (He can't do X because X is unjust...when if God did X then X would be just by definition not of justice but of God).

 

Amen!!!

I wonder sometimes why we stumble so much over why God does not save some who reject him instead of kneeling in awe that he saved us. I certainly did not deserve His grace.

 

I don't know what IT believes. That is why I was asking.

(His "rating" indicates otherwise, but I suspect he agrees with us. I just don't make assumptions or take people's word for what a person believes. That would be....unjust ).

I've said before, people need to learn to state plainly (as best they can) what they believe and stop making assumptions. Even people with the same view may have different understandings when you get down to it. We need to stop being afraid of answering questions, stop hiding behind titles of doctrines and "isms" and plainly discuss what we believe. And we need to be able to do so in brotherly love, not insults and attacks.