ten-reasons-to-not-ask-jesus-into-your-heart-0

[JonC]

Now what about Jesus could He have violated the Ten Commandments and still be the perfect sacrifice, He was after all God, did He have standards was He just and true? Did He as God meet certain standards or do we bond Him in asking these questions?

Jesus wouldn't have violated sinned because he IS the perfect sacrifice. What I am saying is that those things we are speaking of ... just, perfect. righteous, etc. are descriptive of God.

Basically you are asking if God is God. Could Jesus have sinned (i.e., could he stop being who he is)? No.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[revmwc]

Jesus wouldn't have violated sinned because he IS the perfect sacrifice. What I am saying is that those things we are speaking of ... just, perfect. righteous, etc. are descriptive of God.

Basically you are asking if God is God. Could Jesus have sinned (i.e., could he stop being who he is)? No.

Sent from my TARDIS

And yet by teaching that He chooses who will be saved while allowing others to willfully disobey would be binding Him to that set of rules and therefore challenge His being just would it not?

 

[JonC]

And yet by teaching that He chooses who will be saved while allowing others to willfully disobey would be binding Him to that set of rules and therefore challenge His being just would it not?

All men have gone astray. Are you saying that God would only be just if He took away man's will so that he could not disobey? If so, then how would that me a matter of divine justice?

I do not see how God saving men for one purpose but not saving men for another purpose is unjust or binding.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[Kevin]

View attachment 463

Just wanted to THANK those who rated this post as DUMB and DISLIKE. You made my point for me.

The little children arguing among themselves and their Legalistic vomit they are spewing. Why don't you mighty christians get off the forum, and do something useful, instead of trying to impress with how much you know about YOUR god.

Do you people ever think about what you look like to someone who might be searching for answers. I sure hope they go somewhere else first. No wonder the Mormons, and JW's have so much success recruiting out of christian churches if you are the example.

Think about it......Then you can mark this as Dumb, Dislike, and I'm sure that others have called this place on the hypocrisy before, so I'm sure it can be rated Old, too.

 

[TCassidy]

Good verse which absolutely destroys the Calvinist's/Determinist's view that God must force Himself into one's heart with the truth that He is a just God of judgment.

Except that is not a Calvinist view. Who told you it was?

 

[revmwc]

All men have gone astray. Are you saying that God would only be just if He took away man's will so that he could not disobey? If so, then how would that me a matter of divine justice?

I do not see how God saving men for one purpose but not saving men for another purpose is unjust or binding.

Sent from my TARDIS

John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:11 just as in Galatians 4:5 says He came to His own and those under the Law, who was under the law and who were His own, He came to the Jewish people first. We see He came to the Jews first how do we know this, well the entry as a triumphant King on the Palm Friday. He came as a conquering King and presented Himself to the Jews as their King. He came as the Messiah they were seeking and what happened they received Him not. Galatians 4:5 says He came to redeem them that were under the law and who was it that was under the Law? The Jewish people. Some say well we are under the law, are we, really. So we are required to offer sacrifices, blood sacrifices were a part of the Law they were required for that nation Israel. You say no I mean the 10 Commandments we are under them one might say, but wait are we? Did the 10 commandments save anyone? Or do they show the standard that God has set for mankind? 10 commandments that is 10 things we need to do to meet God’s standard and yet not one person save Jesus can keep them. It is a matter of choice just keep the 10 Commandments and yet not even we as Christians can keep them perfectly. Because all of mankind has an Old Nature a nature to sin. Jesus said in Matthew 5:28

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

Just looking on a woman or for women looking at a man with a thought of lust means you have broken the law. Isaiah 41:26 and Romans 3:10 state that not one person is righteous no not one. Ephesians 2:8&9 we see this in the interlinear,

“to the for grace Ye ARE ones having been saved through belief (Faith) and this not of you of God the approach-present, not out from works so that not anyone might boast”

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So what is the gift of God, many say faith but let’s look how this breaks down. God has supplied salvation by Grace that is clear! Salvation comes by Faith and Salvation is not of yourselves it is not of works of Righteousness which we have done. Let’s look at it with Faith as the gift, Salvation is by Grace through Faith and Faith is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, Faith is not of your own works, but wait then what of salvation is it of works can it be or is it by Grace? Grace is the unmerited favor of God, Salvation comes by the unmerited favor of God correct? If Salvation comes by God’s unmerited favor isn’t it a gift? Wouldn’t Salvation be the gift of God? Salvation that you cannot boast about, Salvation as a free gift from God. If not then it is not of Grace. Secondly let’s look closer at this For by Grace are ye saved through Faith and not of yourselves, now Faith could be not of ourselves that is true it could be the gift spoken of but then let’s look at the balance of this, then Faith is not of yourselves not by your own works, wait have you ever talked to someone who when you ask them why they would end up in heaven have said well I have been good so I have Faith? Or do they say well I hope I have been good enough so I have salvation, I hope I go to heaven because I’ve been trying hard to get there, isn’t that a salvation of works, their faith is in their works. They never attribute works to faith but many attribute salvation to works, so what was Paul's context that people believed that their works gave them faith? No that people even as the church was forming believed they could gain salvation by works. The entire subject of Ephesians 2:8 & 9 is salvation, what is not of works in this passage? Salvation is said to be by Grace, and what is the gift of God, salvation, and how do you get a gift it is given that is true but you must act to receive that gift. A present that stays wrapped is not possessed is it? It can’t be utilized can it? It does the recipient no good of intrinsic value! It must be received, opened and utilized to accomplish its purpose, the person must believe that they received the entire gift and go and possess that gift, that is how Faith for Salvation works by Faith we reach out to take the free gift of salvation. Salvation cannot be utilized until one places their faith in Christ, the gift is there and available but it must be accepted and claimed. Thus the prayer for salvation that can be spoken “Lord Jesus I believe that you died for my sins and I accept You as the only means of salvation. Come into my life (heart) and save me.” What part brings salvation?

 

[Benjamin]

Except that is not a Calvinist view.

Oh really? Except what is not a Calvinist view, determinism? Perhaps I was little too direct about the logical conclusion to Calvinism, ...being too transparent? Or is this supposed to be one of those “you don’t understand our view” arguments?

Who told you it was?

Could have fooled me with all the Calvinists here eagerly hoovering the thread to protect against any notion that the heart can freely respond to God’s influences. Maybe you can explain for me how the Determinist’s view does not conclude that only the Specially Preselected Elect, who must have their heart replaced first, can respond to God’s influences? Because I’d be interested in who told you the Calvinists’/Determinists’ view wasn’t strictly based and logically dependent on cause & effect determinism of the heart?

 

[revmwc]

All men have gone astray. Are you saying that God would only be just if He took away man's will so that he could not disobey? If so, then how would that me a matter of divine justice?

I do not see how God saving men for one purpose but not saving men for another purpose is unjust or binding.

Sent from my TARDIS

No God gave to men volition the ability to make choices. We utilize our volition every single day. As you choose to serve God or walk in sin. As You choose to Walk in the filling of the Spirit or choose to walking in the filling of the flesh. As believers we utilize Volition every single day. God will not override a persons volition in most cases, has He ever? Did He allow Adam and Eve to fall? Did Adam utilize Volition and eat of the fruit in disobedience, of course he did. Did Enoch choose to walk with God of course he did and God took him. What about Noah, did Noah by Faith choose to build an Ark by God's command? Yes of course, could he have said no, yes he very easily could have. Would God have forced Noah to build t he Ark? Would God have forced Abraham to leave Ur of Chaldee's, He could have but did He? No He allowed each one to ,make their own choice, did He force you to accept Christ? Did He say you will receive my Son I command it? Or did He in His justice allow you to make the choice to choose to believe, if not then what of the unbeliever did He in His justice force them to reject Christ? If not then they made it freely and if they made their choice freely then so too did all who were saved. God knew beforehand everyone and every choice they would make, He knew it in eternity past, we are told those He knew Beforehand them He did predestinat. You see everything is based upon His knowing (Omniscience) beforehand.

 

[JonC]

So what is the gift of God, many say faith but let’s look how this breaks down. God has supplied salvation by Grace that is clear! Salvation comes by Faith and Salvation is not of yourselves it is not of works of Righteousness which we have done. Let’s look at it with Faith as the gift, Salvation is by Grace through Faith and Faith is not of yourselves it is the gift of God, Faith is not of your own works, but wait then what of salvation is it of works can it be or is it by Grace? Grace is the unmerited favor of God, Salvation comes by the unmerited favor of God correct? If Salvation comes by God’s unmerited favor isn’t it a gift? Wouldn’t Salvation be the gift of God? Salvation that you cannot boast about, Salvation as a free gift from God. If not then it is not of Grace. Secondly let’s look closer at this For by Grace are ye saved through Faith and not of yourselves, now Faith could be not of ourselves that is true it could be the gift spoken of but then let’s look at the balance of this, then Faith is not of yourselves not by your own works, wait have you ever talked to someone who when you ask them why they would end up in heaven have said well I have been good so I have Faith? Or do they say well I hope I have been good enough so I have salvation, I hope I go to heaven because I’ve been trying hard to get there, isn’t that a salvation of works, their faith is in their works. They never attribute works to faith but many attribute salvation to works, so what was Paul's context that people believed that their works gave them faith? No that people even as the church was forming believed they could gain salvation by works. The entire subject of Ephesians 2:8 & 9 is salvation, what is not of works in this passage? Salvation is said to be by Grace, and what is the gift of God, salvation, and how do you get a gift it is given that is true but you must act to receive that gift. A present that stays wrapped is not possessed is it? It can’t be utilized can it? It does the recipient no good of intrinsic value! It must be received, opened and utilized to accomplish its purpose, the person must believe that they received the entire gift and go and possess that gift, that is how Faith for Salvation works by Faith we reach out to take the free gift of salvation. Salvation cannot be utilized until one places their faith in Christ, the gift is there and available but it must be accepted and claimed. Thus the prayer for salvation that can be spoken “Lord Jesus I believe that you died for my sins and I accept You as the only means of salvation. Come into my life (heart) and save me.” What part brings salvation?

1. I never said that "the gift" was in Ephesians was referring to "faith". I believe Paul is speaking of salvation as a whole as being this gift from God.
2. I never said that having "faith" is a work. I don't believe it is.
3. I do not know why you believe that one must act to receive a gift in general. I was given the gift of physical life decades ago. I did nothing to receive it. Why should spiritual life be so different?
4. Salvation is not something that is utilized (we don't use our salvation). Just like God is just because He is God, we are saved because we are "in Christ."
5. I never opposed the "sinners prayer." I have said that I believe some have misused it, but I've also said that I personally have not been in a congregation where it was used inappropriately.

 

[JonC]

No God gave to men volition the ability to make choices. We utilize our volition every single day. As you choose to serve God or walk in sin. As You choose to Walk in the filling of the Spirit or choose to walking in the filling of the flesh.

No God gave to men or No, God gave to men?

I never said that we do not make choices daily. I said that without the work of the Spirit man will not choose God. Now that I am saved, I still make choices. But now I am freed from the bondage of sin and I can actually do what I should. BUT what I should do is present my body as a living sacrifice to God, taking up my cross daily - crucified with Christ - when I do that good it is not I but Christ living in me. Yes, we disagree.

 

[revmwc]

1. I never said that "the gift" was in Ephesians was referring to "faith". I believe Paul is speaking of salvation as a whole as being this gift from God.
2. I never said that having "faith" is a work. I don't believe it is.
3. I do not know why you believe that one must act to receive a gift in general. I was given the gift of physical life decades ago. I did nothing to receive it. Why should spiritual life be so different?
4. Salvation is not something that is utilized (we don't use our salvation). Just like God is just because He is God, we are saved because we are "in Christ."
5. I never opposed the "sinners prayer." I have said that I believe some have misused it, but I've also said that I personally have not been in a congregation where it was used inappropriately.

But you did do something to receive physical life, you breathed in you en pneumaed (sic), that is breathed in had you not the gift of life would not have been yours. Of course we use our salvation, we use to accomplish God's will and way, we use it to Gain rewards in Heaven, rewards of intrinsic value.

 

[revmwc]

No God gave to men or No, God gave to men?

I never said that we do not make choices daily. I said that without the work of the Spirit man will not choose God. Now that I am saved, I still make choices. But now I am freed from the bondage of sin and I can actually do what I should. BUT what I should do is present my body as a living sacrifice to God, taking up my cross daily - crucified with Christ - when I do that good it is not I but Christ living in me. Yes, we disagree.

Without the convicting of the Holy Spirit no one will come to God. problem is many in this thread see that God must regenerate by giving a perso Faith before they believe on Christ, thus they see them as saved before they believe.

 

[TCassidy]

Except what is not a Calvinist view

Your assertion that "God must force Himself into one's heart."

Could have fooled me with all the Calvinists here eagerly hoovering the thread to protect against any notion that the heart can freely respond to God’s influences.

Jeremiah 17:9 seems to disprove your thesis. "The heart is deceitful above all things and it is exceedingly corrupt. Who can know it?"

1 Corinthians 2:14 reinforces Jeremiah when it makes it abundantly clear that
"the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

And Romans 8:7 puts the final nail in the coffin of those who believe a lost person can come to Christ "because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be."

Maybe you can explain for me how the Determinist’s view does not conclude that only the Specially Preselected Elect, who must have their heart replaced first, can respond to God’s influences? Because I’d be interested in who told you the Calvinists’/Determinists’ view wasn’t strictly based and logically dependent on cause & effect determinism of the heart?

As I am not a Determinist I cannot speak for them. But I can speak regarding my faith in the Omnipotent God of all Creation and His ability to draw men to Himself and so change their hearts that they willingly believe, repent, obey, and follow Christ.

Perhaps a quick perusal of the 5 Heads of Doctrine as presented by the Canons of the Synod of Dort would help you understand that Divine Election is a bible doctrine. Love it or hate it, it is a bible doctrine.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

2 John 1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2 John 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Add to that the similar word "chosen" and you get:

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Romans 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[TCassidy]

But you did do something to receive physical life, you breathed in you en pneumaed (sic), that is breathed in had you not the gift of life would not have been yours. Of course we use our salvation, we use to accomplish God's will and way, we use it to Gain rewards in Heaven, rewards of intrinsic value.

You took your first breath because you were already alive! As the parent of a baby born dead I know the difference. Believe me!

 

[TCassidy]

they see them as saved before they believe.

Uh no. Do you believe a lost person has saving faith?

 

[revmwc]

You took your first breath because you were already alive! As the parent of a baby born dead I know the difference. Believe me!

Most of us received a slap on the rear to get us breathing. Sorry for your loss of a child at birth. That must really still hurt. I have had many loses in my life too.

 

[revmwc]

Uh no. Do you believe a lost person has saving faith?

They wouldn't be lost with faith. They aren't regenerated until they by their volition believe that is come to Him by faith. That Faith comes when they hear and are convicted, then they receive salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

They wouldn't be lost with faith.

Exactly.

They aren't regenerated until they by their volition believe that is come to Him by faith.

You just contradicted yourself. You say they are regenerated (born again, saved) AFTER they believe. So which is it? Do they have saving faith while they are lost or not?

That Faith comes when they hear and are convicted, then they receive salvation.

So now you are saying they have saving faith while still lost and only then do they receive salvation?

 

[TCassidy]

Most of us received a slap on the rear to get us breathing.

Was your heart beating when you were slapped on the rear? If so, you were already alive. And, prior to your taking your first breath of air, were you breathing? Yes, you were. The unborn child begins, at about 9 weeks of pregnancy, to breathe amniotic fluid. An unborn baby will breathe amniotic fluid in the womb. The breathing reflex starts long before birth, to develop the diaphragm muscles, so the baby is just doing what it had been doing all along, but breathing air rather than amniotic fluid. And it does that because it is already alive!

 

[revmwc]

Exactly.


You just contradicted yourself. You say they are regenerated (born again, saved) AFTER they believe. So which is it? Do they have saving faith while they are lost or not?
So now you are saying they have saving faith while still lost and only then do they receive salvation?

Salvation = regeneration that is the Spirit comes alive in us. We cannot be regenerated apart from Faith and we cannot have Faith unless we hear the word of God. We cannot hear unless God reveals it to us in some way, God the Holy Spirit reveals to us God through the ear gate in most cases some through the eye gate. When we believe what do we do, we cast ourselves upon Christ and give our lives to Him in belief, by calling upon Him and we are told Christ in us the Hope of Glory, so calling upon him to come into our lives is believing, it is Faith, Faith that He will come into our lives and save us. Acts 16:31 rings true, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Throw yourselves upon Him. W.A. Criswell states it like this "Rather, I am saved by depending upon, casting myself upon, believing upon, committing myself upon the Lord Jesus Christ [Acts 16:31; 2 Timothy 1:12]."
Further on Acts 16:31 we see Dr. Criswell state, "So it is written here: “Pisteuō epi. Pisteuō, believe, epi, upon the Lord Jesus Christ” [Acts 16:31]. A committal of believing, a casting, a depending upon the Lord Jesus Christ: that is, I’m not saved by depending upon, leaning upon, casting myself upon, say, the church. I’m not saved by the church; I’m not saved by depending upon, casting myself upon, the ordinances. I’m not saved by depending upon, casting myself upon, say, the church members, or the preacher, or myself and my good works."

We cast ourselves upon Christ for mercy, this brings to my mind one who throws themselves upon the court for mercy. So we do for salvation, we Hear God's word, the Holy Spirit Convicts us and we must make a choice, throw ourselves upon Christ or reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Many reject and for all eternity, others may reject several times but eventually trust. Those play a dangerous game we would think, but God knows the Heart of man and knows who will make a decision to throw themselves upon Him. That is "Saving Faith" as Dr. Criswell speaks of it. Now the term the Faith of Christ is the Faith we have to live a life for Him that is a life of Faith Rest, Resting in the Promises for life and the Promises for eternal rewards that is we rest in Faith as we serve Him.