The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[savedbymercy]

My response to 2Cor.4:3-4 has been here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=191

You dismiss it; won't answer it; keep saying that it is irrelevant.
It is time to man up and answer it. Answer the full context in which the verses are found.
Did Paul preach a "hidden gospel"?
Did Paul preach to the lost or the saved?
Were you at one time lost?
Did Jesus come to seek and to save that which is lost (or saved)? which one?

Your response to it is evasive to the Truth of the verses ! Those in a lost state have the Gospel permanently hid from them ! I even explained it to you and you ignored it !

 

[BobRyan]

One more quick question for SavedByMercy -.... where are all of the other Calvinists?

 

[savedbymercy]

One more quick question for SavedByMercy -.... where are all of the other Calvinists?

Was Christ 100 % successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? Yes or No !

 

[BobRyan]

Those in a lost state have the Gospel permanently hid from them !

But the text does not say "our gospel is hidden from all the lost" as your extreme inference practice renders it.

The salient point is missed - because both Calvinists and Arminians admit that there are indeed lost people that never accept the Gospel.

The unproven -- merely-assumed argument that you need to prove is that you can rightly bend that text to say "the gospel is hidden from all the lost" it is a claim you make - but have no text for it.

You merely "assume the salient point" of your own argument that is made only by extreme inference at that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

But the text does not say "our gospel is hidden from all the lost" as your extreme inference practice renders it.

The salient point is missed - because both Calvinists and Arminians admit that there are indeed lost people that never accept the Gospel.

The unproven -- merely-assumed argument that you need to prove is that you can rightly bend that text to say "the gospel is hidden from all the lost" it is a claim you make - but have no text for it.

You merely "assume the salient point" of your own argument that is made only by extreme inference at that.

in Christ,

Bob

The text says that the Gospel is hid from them that are lost ! Also it's hidden from them permanently !

 

[BobRyan]

Was Christ 100 % successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? Yes or No !

I did give you yes or no here - but you are ignoring the post possibly because it includes the texts Calvinism needs to avoid.

no because He himself states that He is not willing for any to perish - and he himself expresses lament over the results --- the very texts that you have no answer for --

consider this easy one in Matt 23.



[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]


=======================================


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================================

Here is a question for you since you won't respond to these texts.

IF you had read these texts BEFORE choosing to be Calvinist - would you really have decided then to ignore the Bible and be a Calvinist anyway?

really??

I don't think so.

I think Calvinists become so - not because of these texts -- but in spite of them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

I did give you yes or no here - but you are ignoring the post possibly because it includes the texts Calvinism needs to avoid.

[quote name="BobRyan" post=2180529]One more quick question for SavedByMercy -.... where are all of the other Calvinists?[/QUOTE]<br />
Was Christ 100 % successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? Yes or No !<br/>

 

[BobRyan]

The text says that the Gospel is hid from them that are lost ! Also it's hidden from them permanently !

1. It does not say that it is hidden from all of the lost - you add that part.

2. It does not say that those who refuse the Gospel today - will refuse it tomorrow because at Pentecost we have a perfect example of those who rejected the Gospel yesterday - accepting it today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Next question for you - since you seem determined to have the following Question and Answer sequence played over and over again.

How exactly does the sequence below help Calvinism?? You keep asking for it to be repeated - I see how it helps the Arminian POV to do that - but how does it help Calvinism?

Was Christ 100 % successful in seeking and saving that which was lost ? Yes or No !<br/>

no because He himself states that He is not willing for any to perish - and he himself expresses lament over the results --- the very texts that you have no answer for --

consider this easy one in Matt 23.



[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]


=======================================


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================================

Here is a question for you since you won't respond to these texts.

IF you had read these texts BEFORE choosing to be Calvinist - would you really have decided then to ignore the Bible and be a Calvinist anyway?

really??

I don't think so.

I think Calvinists become so - not because of these texts -- but in spite of them.

 

[DHK]

Your response to it is evasive to the Truth of the verses ! Those in a lost state have the Gospel permanently hid from them ! I even explained it to you and you ignored it !

One step at a time then.
Here is what Jesus said:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Was he lying? How do you account for the words of Christ?

 

[Don]

SBM must have me on ignore....

 

[BobRyan]

SBM must have me on ignore....

Question - is SBM the only Calvinist on this thread?

Why is that??

 

[savedbymercy]

1. It does not say that it is hidden from all of the lost - you add that part.

2. It does not say that those who refuse the Gospel today - will refuse it tomorrow because at Pentecost we have a perfect example of those who rejected the Gospel yesterday - accepting it today.

in Christ,

Bob

It does say that the Gospel is hid from THEM THAT ARE LOST ! CAN'T YOU READ !

 

[savedbymercy]

One step at a time then.
Here is what Jesus said:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Was he lying? How do you account for the words of Christ?

I already stated something on Lk 19:10 so obviously you don't pay attention ! Do you believe that Christ was 100 % successful in accomplishing the Two objectives in that verse ? Yes or No ! Do you know what they are ?

 

[BobRyan]

But the text does not say "our gospel is hidden from all the lost" as your extreme inference practice renders it.

The salient point is missed - because both Calvinists and Arminians admit that there indeed "exists" such a thing as a lost people that never accepts the Gospel.

The unproven -- merely-assumed argument that you need to proveis that you can rightly bend that text to say "the gospel is hidden from all the lost" it is a claim you make - but have no text for it.

You merely "assume the salient point" of your own argument that is made only by extreme inference at that.

It does say that the Gospel is hid from THEM THAT ARE LOST ! CAN'T YOU READ !

I can see that you repeat yourself while ignoring the point raised - which is that you are not making any effort to defend the salient point in your own argument.

Try it.

Because I CAN prove the salient point in my argument for the Arminian side that the Gospel is sent to the lost -- trying to reach those who are not saved, not reconciled, not sanctified.

Meanwhile Paul says the gospel is going to the unsaved in Romans 11 " 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

By contrast the God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11


The very sequence you object to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.


That is how the "unreconciled" become saved as they respond to God's call where he "begs them to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5

As Christ stands on the outside of the christless-lost "I STAND and KNOCK - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

2 Peter 3 where we find that God is "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" How does He take action to solve that problem according to Peter? is it by "mind ZAPping"??? No it is by the very "Arminian" solution of "delaying" allowing time for "Gospel appeal" to go forward -- a very Arminian process.

 

[savedbymercy]

I can see that you repeat yourself while ignoring the point raised - which is that you are not making any effort to defend the salient point in your own argument.

Try it.

Because I CAN prove the salient point in my argument for the Arminian side that the Gospel is sent to the lost -- trying to reach those who are not saved, not reconciled, not sanctified.

Meanwhile Paul says the gospel is going to the unsaved in Romans 11 " 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

By contrast the God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11


The very sequence you object to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.


That is how the "unreconciled" become saved as they respond to God's call where he "begs them to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5

As Christ stands on the outside of the christless-lost "I STAND and KNOCK - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

2 Peter 3 where we find that God is "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" How does He take action to solve that problem according to Peter? is it by "mind ZAPping"??? No it is by the very "Arminian" solution of "delaying" allowing time for "Gospel appeal" to go forward -- a very Arminian process.

The Gospel is hid from them that are lost , permanently hid 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[Don]

Okay, I'd like to try again:

I understand what you're saying: the lost are lost, period. No amount of preaching the gospel to them will change that fact. Only the elect will have any benefit from the preaching -- but based on your past postings, they don't need the preaching, because even if they've never heard the gospel, they were made righteous while yet sinners.

So why are we commanded to preach the gospel? Because ultimately, it's of no benefit to the saved or the lost....

Then you wrote:

Yeah they were lost, but Christ death saved them ! You believe that people Christ came to seek and to save are still lost ? And answer my question about Lk 19:10 since you brought it up ! You scared ?

You're contradicting yourself. You can't say that the lost will not hear the gospel; then reference the lost that were saved. You're making no sense.

 

[InTheLight]

People, the Ignore feature is a wonderful tool.

 

[DHK]

I already stated something on Lk 19:10 so obviously you don't pay attention ! Do you believe that Christ was 100 % successful in accomplishing the Two objectives in that verse ? Yes or No ! Do you know what they are ?

I haven't been reading all the posts SBM, primarily just the ones between you and me.
Christ came into the world, as he stated, "to seek and to save the lost," whomever they would be. Many rejected him. Some received him.

In general terms John records what happened:
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--His own, that is the nations of Israel, rejected him. They crucified him instead.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--But those who received him, were those that believed on his name and they were the ones that became the sons of God.
Salvation is a cooperative effort. Within the sovereignty of God, He allows the agency of faith as a necessary part of salvation. In fact without faith it is impossible to be saved. At the same time both Christ and Paul make it clear that faith is not a work. In fact faith and works oppose each other. Therefore salvation remains a gift from God, and totally from God, totally of God.
But it must be received by faith from God.

 

[DHK]

The Gospel is hid from them that are lost , permanently hid 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

The gospel is not hid from them that are lost. You butcher that verse.
You have not quoted the entirety of that verse. You take it out of context.

It says "the gospel is hid from them that are lost," as much as Psalm 14:1 says "There is no God."
That is how well you are quoting this scripture.