Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
It does not say that the Adoption comes in two phases. we have verses which have the word 'Adoption ' in a context.
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The Adoption
- Thread starter Barry Johnson
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
So those in Him , the faithful saints in Christ Jesus which is the description of those paul is writing, to Are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world . Did you exist then ? Or did Jesus exist then ? Or did God choose that all Those that believe the Gosepl would be placed in Him
and be predestined to a future Adoption ?
37818
Well-Known Member
That Greek term is only used by the Apostle Paul, which means to be placed as a son. It is my understanding, it was under Roman law that a father who has a son must adopt his son in order for his son to have an inheritance.
1 John 3:2 comes to mind, ". . . now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. . . ."
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Basically are we agreeing that we have not recieved the Adoption, to wit the redemption of the body. We may have recieved many things . But unless your walking through walls like Jesus I.ll assume you have not received the Adoption , to wit the redemption of the body. But we are predestined to it . its guaranteed. We have recieved the spirit of Adoption and are sealed until the redemption of the body. This sealing cannot be undone .
Dave G
Well-Known Member
@Barry Johnson :
I'd like to make one more set of replies to address your concerns, sir, as I've made several very in-depth responses to your questions and comments over the past couple of weeks now, from my perspective.
I'm going to summarize this as succinctly as possible so that you know where I stand:
Our response to the Gospel as His children is not a work of men, it is the work of God in us ( John 6:29 ).
The work "of God" is that a person believes on Christ...
We as His children had nothing to do with being the recipients of the gift or of eternal life.
We simply inherited Him ( Genesis 15:1 ) and our relationship with Him as a gift of His grace, mercy and compassion towards those "vessels" that He has decided to save from His wrath ( Romans 9 ).
He then rewards us with what we are seeking for...
Salvation.
By making eternal life dependent upon faith ( or any other good thing ), it turns the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ) into works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
However, if faith is dependent upon God, and everything else that is truly good is dependent upon God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ), then it truly is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for the right choice, the right behavior, the right act or set of acts on our part.
I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to grasp.
I'd like to make one more set of replies to address your concerns, sir, as I've made several very in-depth responses to your questions and comments over the past couple of weeks now, from my perspective.
I'm going to summarize this as succinctly as possible so that you know where I stand:
According to God's word,
Our response to the Gospel as His children is not a work of men, it is the work of God in us ( John 6:29 ).
The work "of God" is that a person believes on Christ...
We as His children had nothing to do with being the recipients of the gift or of eternal life.
We simply inherited Him ( Genesis 15:1 ) and our relationship with Him as a gift of His grace, mercy and compassion towards those "vessels" that He has decided to save from His wrath ( Romans 9 ).
If God relies on man to respond to the Gospel instead of that response being a direct result of His calling and election, then He is waiting on us to perform an act that is "worthy" of His grace.
He then rewards us with what we are seeking for...
Salvation.
By making eternal life dependent upon faith ( or any other good thing ), it turns the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ) into works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).
However, if faith is dependent upon God, and everything else that is truly good is dependent upon God ( John 3:27, James 1:17 ), then it truly is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for the right choice, the right behavior, the right act or set of acts on our part.
I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to grasp.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry that it makes no sense to you, Barry.
I am believing the Scriptures, which state that I was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4), I was predestined to be an adopted son of the living God ( Ephesians 1:5 ), predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29 ), I was chosen to salvation through both the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and my belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), and called by the Gospel of my salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:14 ).
He has made me accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ), I am sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13 ), which is the redemption of my body ( Romans 8:23 ), not my soul...which was redeemed for me at the cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
I am justified by His blood ( Romans 5:9 ) and my faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for me and others like me is the evidence ( not the means ) of me being justified in God's sight and the sight of all men.
The reason I believe and was given the privilege to come to Christ is because it was given to me in His behalf not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
My Heavenly Father gave me to His Son, and I came to Him in belief when I was called by the Gospel ( John 6:37-40, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, Romans 10:8-17, Ephesians 1:13 )...
I believed on Him for the forgiveness of my sins because He caused me to ( Psalms 65:4 ) by the power of the Spirit and by the new birth that is His miraculous work and His alone.
I was begotten through the word by Him, according to His will ( James 1:18 ), not my will ( John 1:13 ).
My faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and is the gift of God to His elect ( Ephesians 2:8 ), not of works, lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
I am His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus" unto good works ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
The work that He began in me He will finish ( Philippians 1:6 ).
No work of righteousness ever made me accepted in His Son, only His mercy and grace did ( Titus 4:5-6 ).
My works of righteousness are only possible because of His Spirit in me ( Acts of the Apostles 2:4, Romans 8:11-13, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, Galatians 5:16, Philippians 2:13 ).
My faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ) and I did not have it until I was given it and His Spirit's sealing.
Because of my total dependence upon the Lord for His every goodness, I have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace towards me, a vile sinner that deserves nothing but His eternal wrath and punishment.
Goodbye, Barry.
I truly do wish you well.
It seems that the more we go round and round, the more you cannot seem to understand where I'm coming from.
I assure you that I am relying on His words alone, and nothing else.
Just because I look like a follower of John Calvin's teachings does not make it so, my friend.
I do not take my cues from the teachings of men...
Calvin, Knox, Wesley, Edwards nor Rice.
I ignore them and trust only God's word...
For truly, is there any place other than His well that I can go to for the water ( Proverbs 3:5-6 )?
This will be my last reply to you on this forum.
The more we interact with one another, the more apparent it becomes to me that we are not in agreement, and truly, can two walk together unless they be agreed?
No ( Amos 3:3 ).
As you continue your days on this earth ( Job 14:1-5, Psalms 31:15 ) that the Lord has granted to you by His grace, I wish you every blessing from above that can be received of us as men.
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
When we get the redemption of the body ( Adoption ) then it will be manifest and can be said " now that's a son of God . "
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
lol if there was a prize for proof texting you win , I cant compete . heres a challenge . Get a group of believers and do a bible study ( New testament) and just decide that your going to lay aside any presups and bias ( we all have them ) and just go through the text in context ..I promise you will not see what you are currently believing. God bless .I'm sorry that it makes no sense to you, Barry.
I am believing the Scriptures, which state that I was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4), I was predestined to be an adopted son of the living God ( Ephesians 1:5 ), predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29 ), I was chosen to salvation through both the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and my belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), and called by the Gospel of my salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:14 ).
He has made me accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ), I am sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13 ), which is the redemption of my body ( Romans 8:23 ) , not my soul...which was redeemed for me at the cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
I am justified by His blood ( Romans 5:9 ) and my faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for me and others like me is the evidence ( not the means ) of me being justified in God's sight and the sight of all men.
The reason I believe and was given the privilege to come to Christ is because it was given to me in His behalf not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
My Heavenly Father gave me to His Son, and I came to Him in belief when I was called by the Gospel ( John 6:37-40, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, Romans 10:8-17, Ephesians 1:13 )...
I believed on Him for the forgiveness of my sins because He cased me to by the power of the Spirit and by the new birth that is His miraculous work and His alone.
I was begotten through the word by Him, according to His will ( James 1:18 ), not my will ( John 1:13 ).
My faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and is the gift of God to His elect ( Ephesians 2:8 ), not of works, lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
I am His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus" unto good works ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
The work that He began in me He will finish ( Philippians 1:6 ).
No work of righteousness ever made me accepted in His Son, only His mercy and grace did.
My works of righteousness are only possible because of His Spirit in me.
My faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ) and I did not have it until I was given it and His Spirit's sealing.
Because of my total dependence upon the Lord for His every goodness, I have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace towards me, a vile sinner hat deserves nothing but His eternal wrath and punishment.
Goodbye, Barry.
It seems that the more we go round and round, the more you cannot seem to understand where I'm coming from.
I assure you that I am relying on His words alone, and nothing else.
Just because I look like a follower of John Calvin's teachings, does not make it so, my friend.
This will be my last reply to you on this forum.
we are not in agreement, and truly, can two walk together unless they be agreed?
No ( Amos 3:3 ).
I wish you every blessing from above that can be received of us as men.
Utterly false unbiblical screed. Note how Calvinists use the translation choice "adoption" to mean what the modern English means, to enter the family. However that is utter nonsense. The actual meaning of the Greek word translated "adoption" is the granting of the full rights of sonship within a family at maturity. Think of the granting the rights and responsibilities of adulthood to citizens at age 18.
This is just another example of the shoddy bible study that provides the bogus foundation of Calvinism.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Our bodies must die and rot. But we were saved before the foundation of the world. Eternally in God.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
call it what you want , but that's not Christianity. If your saved and in christ before your saved and in christ then that makes the Death burial and resurrection unnecessary.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Our salvation had to be paid for. Eternal life = no beginning or end, just Like God.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world . In fact the entire cosmos . That's why whole of creation is groaning ( rom 8 )
But that has to be recieved in order to benefit from the atonement.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
If you dont recieve the atonement then you will not be glorified. ( saved )
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
once you let go of the English western understanding of ' adoption ' you will understand better .I'm sorry that it makes no sense to you, Barry.
I am believing the Scriptures, which state that I was chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4), I was predestined to be an adopted son of the living God ( Ephesians 1:5 ), predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son ( Romans 8:29 ), I was chosen to salvation through both the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and my belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ), and called by the Gospel of my salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:14 ).
He has made me accepted in the beloved ( Ephesians 1:6 ), I am sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 1:13 ), which is the redemption of my body ( Romans 8:23 ), not my soul...which was redeemed for me at the cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ).
I am justified by His blood ( Romans 5:9 ) and my faith in Christ's finished work on the cross for me and others like me is the evidence ( not the means ) of me being justified in God's sight and the sight of all men.
The reason I believe and was given the privilege to come to Christ is because it was given to me in His behalf not only to believe on Him, but to suffer for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
My Heavenly Father gave me to His Son, and I came to Him in belief when I was called by the Gospel ( John 6:37-40, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, Romans 10:8-17, Ephesians 1:13 )...
I believed on Him for the forgiveness of my sins because He caused me to ( Psalms 65:4 ) by the power of the Spirit and by the new birth that is His miraculous work and His alone.
I was begotten through the word by Him, according to His will ( James 1:18 ), not my will ( John 1:13 ).
My faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and is the gift of God to His elect ( Ephesians 2:8 ), not of works, lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
I am His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus" unto good works ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
The work that He began in me He will finish ( Philippians 1:6 ).
No work of righteousness ever made me accepted in His Son, only His mercy and grace did ( Titus 4:5-6 ).
My works of righteousness are only possible because of His Spirit in me ( Acts of the Apostles 2:4, Romans 8:11-13, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, Galatians 5:16, Philippians 2:13 ).
My faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ) and I did not have it until I was given it and His Spirit's sealing.
Because of my total dependence upon the Lord for His every goodness, I have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace towards me, a vile sinner that deserves nothing but His eternal wrath and punishment.
Goodbye, Barry.
I truly do wish you well.
It seems that the more we go round and round, the more you cannot seem to understand where I'm coming from.
I assure you that I am relying on His words alone, and nothing else.
Just because I look like a follower of John Calvin's teachings does not make it so, my friend.
I do not take my cues from the teachings of men...
Calvin, Knox, Wesley, Edwards nor Rice.
I ignore them and trust only God's word...
For truly, is there any place other than His well that I can go to for the water ( Proverbs 3:5-6 )?
This will be my last reply to you on this forum.
The more we interact with one another, the more apparent it becomes to me that we are not in agreement, and truly, can two walk together unless they be agreed?
No ( Amos 3:3 ).
As you continue your days on this earth ( Job 14:1-5, Psalms 31:15 ) that the Lord has granted to you by His grace, I wish you every blessing from above that can be received of us as men.
Respectfully, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that the believer was chosen to salvation through two things...
Their being sanctified by the Spirit, and their belief of the truth ( which is given to them in the behalf of Christ, see Philippians 1:29 ).
Those two things are the result of the work of God ( John 6:29, Ephesians 2:10, Philippians 1:6, James 1:18 ), not a cooperative work between us and the Lord.
Ephesians 1:4 says that they were chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world.
We as God's elect were chosen to be placed within the body of Christ from the foundation of the world...
It was determined then, and carried out in real time within our lives.
Romans 8:28-30 states that only the foreknown will ever experience the benefits of being predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, being called by the Gospel, being justified and then being glorified.
So, unless one is foreknown by God, one cannot be part of the rest.
Only those given to Jesus Christ by the Father will come to Him ( John 6:39, John 6:65 ), and only those given to the Son by the Father will ever receive the gift of eternal life ( John 17:2 ).
Therefore, unless one is chosen by God and caused to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), then one is not blessed of God by His grace.
They are still in their sins and awaiting His judgment.
To me, you're making a person's salvation dependent upon a combination of their own actions and God's, and then God predestinating them to all the rest.
I'm sorry, but I don't see this when I read the Scriptures.
Also, the only Man I follow is Jesus Christ and him alone ( John 10:1-5, John 10:27 ).
I don't read the writings of prominent "Calvinists" in order to help me to understand the Scriptures, Barry.
I read His word, as it is all-sufficient for me and always will be.
If I run across something in His word that I do not understand, I ask Him to show me and He has never let me down...
The more I study, the more He shows me.
You are of course, under no compulsion to believe me... but calling me and others like me "Calvinists" is not accurate, as we do not follow John Calvin nor his writings.
We follow Jesus Christ, and always will.
I wish you well, sir, and may He bless you with many good gifts in the days to follow.
Yet another copy and paste of same bogus interpretations, repeated over and over with never an acknowledgement of the rebuttal.
1) Yes 2 Thessalonians says we are chosen (elected) for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth, thus a conditional election, thus demonstrating Calvinism is bogus.
2) John 6:29 says the work God requires of us, not the work God does. See the NET translation and footnote.
3) Ephesians 2:10 is non-germane, dealing with becoming a new creation AFTER being chosen and placed in Christ. Thus this citation provides deception, suggesting support where none exists.
4) Philippians 1:6 is non-germane, dealing with the work of our indwelt Help, which we received AFTER being chosen and placed in Christ. This this is the second citation providing deception, suggesting support where none exists.
5) James 1:18 says God brought us faith by the word of truth, again teaching we were chosen (elected) for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth. No support for Calvinism, but yet another verse that precludes unconditional election.
6) Returning now to the Calvinist fiction of the "gift of faith" it is not found in scripture, just another falsehood among many. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-25 teach that if God credits our faith as righteousness, this results in our justification (verse 25).
7) Yes Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It does not say we were chosen to be placed in Him, which is the Calvinist doctrine being read into the text. Actually, what "in Him" means is that when God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, God therefore corporately chose all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him.
8) Romans 8:28-30 says the "redeemed" as the target group of God's redemption plan were foreknown, and that this redemption plan included predestining whoever is placed in Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son. Once again no actual support for Calvinism's bogus interpretation.
9) Yes, when God places a believer into Christ, they "arrive in Christ." We know that this is dealing with a change in spiritual location because the result is the person is "in Christ" and Christ promises to never cast them out. John 6:37 Yes those placed in Christ shall never perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.
10) John 6:65 is teaching only those God allows to believe can believe. But this refers to the exceptions where God hardens the heart, such as Judas and the Jews of Romans 11. Again absolutely no support for God hardening everyone with total spiritual inability. If that bogus doctrine were true, God would not have had to harden the hearts of the Jews in Romans 11. Thus the very verse cited actually teaches Calvinism is bogus. Scripture God hardens some hearts, Calvinism God hardens every heart. Ask yourselves, why did Jesus speak in parables with no one could understand?
11) John 17:2 repeats that only those God places spiritually into Christ receive eternal life. John 6:37 and John 3:16
12) Psalms 65:4 is actually addressing the Old Covenant, but if we interpret it to have applicability to the New Covenant then it says once again, only those chosen and placed in Christ dwell in the Kingdom of God. Again absolutely no actual support for the bogus doctrine of Calvinism.
13) This view does not make salvation dependent upon the believer, salvation does not depend on the man who wills or works but upon God alone. Romans 9:16. Unless God credits the person's faith, they are never saved. Once again a bogus strawman argument is used to bolster bogus doctrine.
P.S Barry feel free to copy and save this post.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Yet another copy and paste of same bogus interpretations, repeated over and over with never an acknowledgement of the rebuttal.
1) Yes 2 Thessalonians says we are chosen (elected) for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth, thus a conditional election, thus demonstrating Calvinism is bogus.
2) John 6:29 says the work God requires of us, not the work God does. See the NET translation and footnote.
3) Ephesians 2:10 is non-germane, dealing with becoming a new creation AFTER being chosen and placed in Christ. Thus this citation provides deception, suggesting support where none exists.
4) Philippians 1:6 is non-germane, dealing with the work of our indwelt Help, which we received AFTER being chosen and placed in Christ. This this is the second citation providing deception, suggesting support where none exists.
5) James 1:18 says God brought us faith by the word of truth, again teaching we were chosen (elected) for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth. No support for Calvinism, but yet another verse that precludes unconditional election.
6) Returning now to the Calvinist fiction of the "gift of faith" it is not found in scripture, just another falsehood among many. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-25 teach that if God credits our faith as righteousness, this results in our justification (verse 25).
7) Yes Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It does not say we were chosen to be placed in Him, which is the Calvinist doctrine being read into the text. Actually, what "in Him" means is that when God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, God therefore corporately chose all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him.
8) Romans 8:28-30 says the "redeemed" as the target group of God's redemption plan were foreknown, and that this redemption plan included predestining whoever is placed in Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son. Once again no actual support for Calvinism's bogus interpretation.
9) Yes, when God places a believer into Christ, they "arrive in Christ." We know that this is dealing with a change in spiritual location because the result is the person is "in Christ" and Christ promises to never cast them out. John 6:37 Yes those placed in Christ shall never perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.
10) John 6:65 is teaching only those God allows to believe can believe. But this refers to the exceptions where God hardens the heart, such as Judas and the Jews of Romans 11. Again absolutely no support for God hardening everyone with total spiritual inability. If that bogus doctrine were true, God would not have had to harden the hearts of the Jews in Romans 11. Thus the very verse cited actually teaches Calvinism is bogus. Scripture God hardens some hearts, Calvinism God hardens every heart. Ask yourselves, why did Jesus speak in parables with no one could understand?
11) John 17:2 repeats that only those God places spiritually into Christ receive eternal life. John 6:37 and John 3:16
12) Psalms 65:4 is actually addressing the Old Covenant, but if we interpret it to have applicability to the New Covenant then it says once again, only those chosen and placed in Christ dwell in the Kingdom of God. Again absolutely no actual support for the bogus doctrine of Calvinism.
13) This view does not make salvation dependent upon the believer, salvation does not depend on the man who wills or works but upon God alone. Romans 9:16. Unless God credits the person's faith, they are never saved. Once again a bogus strawman argument is used to bolster bogus doctrine.
P.S Barry feel free to copy and save this post.
Amen . Articulated better than I could . thanks .Yet another copy and paste of same bogus interpretations, repeated over and over with never an acknowledgement of the rebuttal.
1) Yes 2 Thessalonians says we are chosen (elected) for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth, thus a conditional election, thus demonstrating Calvinism is bogus.
2) John 6:29 says the work God requires of us, not the work God does. See the NET translation and footnote.
3) Ephesians 2:10 is non-germane, dealing with becoming a new creation AFTER being chosen and placed in Christ. Thus this citation provides deception, suggesting support where none exists.
4) Philippians 1:6 is non-germane, dealing with the work of our indwelt Help, which we received AFTER being chosen and placed in Christ. This this is the second citation providing deception, suggesting support where none exists.
5) James 1:18 says God brought us faith by the word of truth, again teaching we were chosen (elected) for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth. No support for Calvinism, but yet another verse that precludes unconditional election.
6) Returning now to the Calvinist fiction of the "gift of faith" it is not found in scripture, just another falsehood among many. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-25 teach that if God credits our faith as righteousness, this results in our justification (verse 25).
7) Yes Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. It does not say we were chosen to be placed in Him, which is the Calvinist doctrine being read into the text. Actually, what "in Him" means is that when God chose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before the foundation of the world, God therefore corporately chose all those His Redeemer would redeem, thus He chose us in Him.
8) Romans 8:28-30 says the "redeemed" as the target group of God's redemption plan were foreknown, and that this redemption plan included predestining whoever is placed in Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son. Once again no actual support for Calvinism's bogus interpretation.
9) Yes, when God places a believer into Christ, they "arrive in Christ." We know that this is dealing with a change in spiritual location because the result is the person is "in Christ" and Christ promises to never cast them out. John 6:37 Yes those placed in Christ shall never perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.
10) John 6:65 is teaching only those God allows to believe can believe. But this refers to the exceptions where God hardens the heart, such as Judas and the Jews of Romans 11. Again absolutely no support for God hardening everyone with total spiritual inability. If that bogus doctrine were true, God would not have had to harden the hearts of the Jews in Romans 11. Thus the very verse cited actually teaches Calvinism is bogus. Scripture God hardens some hearts, Calvinism God hardens every heart. Ask yourselves, why did Jesus speak in parables with no one could understand?
11) John 17:2 repeats that only those God places spiritually into Christ receive eternal life. John 6:37 and John 3:16
12) Psalms 65:4 is actually addressing the Old Covenant, but if we interpret it to have applicability to the New Covenant then it says once again, only those chosen and placed in Christ dwell in the Kingdom of God. Again absolutely no actual support for the bogus doctrine of Calvinism.
13) This view does not make salvation dependent upon the believer, salvation does not depend on the man who wills or works but upon God alone. Romans 9:16. Unless God credits the person's faith, they are never saved. Once again a bogus strawman argument is used to bolster bogus doctrine.
P.S Barry feel free to copy and save this post.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Yes predestined to be adopted as children of God. God saves us according to His grace not according to our ways, thoughts, actions, deeds. So we must then be predestined as believers before our births, cause you cant be a child of God without believing in Christ. I wonder do these others on the other side think God predestines all to be the children of God? Cause if they do, they dont acknowledge the fall into sin which allied all into having Satan as their spiritual father.
Which is why you must be BORN AGAIN to have God as your spiritual FATHER, your then 'of God', and no longer of the devil.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
People are never automatically of the Father, and somehow lose that identity after being born here into the flesh. What they are is 'of the devil' and desire to do the devil's will until born of God.
The only ones predestined to adoption are the ones God foreknows as His and so then He makes it certain at some point into their life on earth they will be born again.
The only ones predestined to adoption are the ones God foreknows as His and so then He makes it certain at some point into their life on earth they will be born again.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
As already made clear . The destination chosen beforehand by God ( predestination) happens to people after they believe the Gospel . The destination of every believer is chosen by God for a thing that happens in the future . The bible calls this THE ADOPTION . This is the redemption of the body . Therefore no one has been chosen to be saved before thet existed ( this is Augustines Gnosctism, which is really plagued christianity for many years) Believing is not a work. Faith is not a work . It pleases God by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe. God soverignly chose before the foundation of the world to save people by believing the Gospel and then after they are saved they are guaranteed that future redemption of the body ( rom 8.23 ) which the bible calls the Adoption.
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