The Adoption

[Scott Downey]

As already made clear . The destination chosen beforehand by God ( predestination) happens to people after they believe the Gospel . The destination of every believer is chosen by God for a thing that happens in the future . The bible calls this THE ADOPTION . This is the redemption of the body . Therefore no one has been chosen to be saved before thet existed ( this is Augustines Gnosctism, which is really plagued christianity for many years) Believing is not a work. Faith is not a work . It pleases God by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe. God soverignly chose before the foundation of the world to save people by believing the Gospel and then after they are saved they are guaranteed that future redemption of the body ( rom 8.23 ) which the bible calls the Adoption.

The fact that so many disagree with you from the early writing of the church proves your wrong. I lean towards the departing of the faith to be happening in the last days as people listening and believing doctrines of demons, the falling away is much more responsible for your doctrine than blaming Augustine and the early Catholic churches which was 1500 years ago which was the early church days. They had councils of many people, not just Augustine was involved.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The fact that so many disagree with you from the early writing of the church proves your wrong. I lean towards the departing of the faith to be happening in the last days as people listening and believing doctrines of demons, the falling away is much more responsible for your doctrine than blaming Augustine and the early Catholic churches which was 1500 years ago which was the early church days. They had councils of many people, not just Augustine was involved.

The early church fathers are not the bible.

 

[Barry Johnson]

People are never automatically of the Father, and somehow lose that identity after being born here into the flesh. What they are is 'of the devil' and desire to do the devil's will until born of God.

The only ones predestined to adoption are the ones God foreknows as His and so then He makes it certain at some point into their life on earth they will be born again.

Do you believe the adoption happens at conversion if so what do you make of rom 8.23 ?

 

[Scott Downey]

Do you believe the adoption happens at conversion if so what do you make of rom 8.23 ?

The present condition of creation is not its final one; it is like a mother groaning in labor pains. The entire creation has a destiny planned by God, and longs to be fulfilled, much as believers do . Our salvation has begun—we have the Holy Spirit as a down payment—but it will not be consummated until the resurrection (the full realization of adoption in Christ, refer verse 23). Inevitably, therefore, the Christian life involves patient waiting in hope.

So if God predestined us to be resurrected, which fully happens at the adoption of our (glorified )bodies, you do know we get a totally new and different body unlike the one we have now.

Romans 8
30 Moreover, whom he predestinated, them also he called, and whom he called, them also he justified, and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Glorified means to have that resurrection glorified by God body, which happens at the Resurrection of the Just.

To be resurrected means to be embodied again and occurs after our physical death.

The wicked are also resurrected into an unglorified type of body, and they are burnt in the lake of fire.

 

[1689Dave]

If you dont recieve the atonement then you will not be glorified. ( saved )
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

But God atones, you do not. It is not up to you. If it is, you are the savior and steal God's glory.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world . In fact the entire cosmos . That's why whole of creation is groaning ( rom 8 )
But that has to be recieved in order to benefit from the atonement.

Why isn't everyone saved? Did he pay for the sin of rejecting him?

 

[Barry Johnson]

But God atones, you do not. It is not up to you. If it is, you are the savior and steal God's glory.

Jesus has finished the atonement. it's done. But we have to ' receive ' it .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Why isn't everyone saved? Did he pay for the sin of rejecting him?

I see where you are confused now. when Jesus died on the cross he payed for all sins . Question: where you redeemed when He died on the cross or when you believed?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I see where you are confused now. when Jesus died on the cross he payed for all sins . Question: where you redeemed when He died on the cross or when you believed?

The scriptures say we were lost and enemies of God when Jesus died on the cross .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Why isn't everyone saved? Did he pay for the sin of rejecting him?

no one is saved by the death of Christ. And yes he paid for the sin of unbelief. We are saved by his life . We are only saved after we believe . We are not saved when Jesus paid for sins .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes predestined to be adopted as children of God. God saves us according to His grace not according to our ways, thoughts, actions, deeds. So we must then be predestined as believers before our births, cause you cant be a child of God without believing in Christ. I wonder do these others on the other side think God predestines all to be the children of God? Cause if they do, they dont acknowledge the fall into sin which allied all into having Satan as their spiritual father.

Which is why you must be BORN AGAIN to have God as your spiritual FATHER, your then 'of God', and no longer of the devil.

What if God said that He requires people to be saved by faith? wouldn't that be Gods free sovereign choice ?

 

[Scott Downey]

What if God said that He requires people to be saved by faith? wouldn't that be Gods free sovereign choice ?

Where does faith come from though?

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Acts 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

[The Archangel]

no one is saved by the death of Christ.

Wow.... This is heresy and it is illogical. If no one is saved by Jesus' death, then He never had to die. To claim that His death does not work to save us is heresy.

And yes he paid for the sin of unbelief.

Then unbelievers must go to heaven too.

We are saved by his life . We are only saved after we believe . We are not saved when Jesus paid for sins .

I agree that His life has a great bearing on our salviation, but how are we saved by His life without His death doing anything?

The Archangel

 

[Barry Johnson]

But God atones, you do not. It is not up to you. If it is, you are the savior and steal God's glory.

Where does faith come from though?

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Acts 3:16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Where does sight , taste , hearing etc. come from ? I believe their all gifts . The bible however has many words and sometimes the same words have different meanings in different contexts. ' Saving faith ' ' measure of faith ' from faith to faith ' ect. It's clear we use this ' faith ' we have the ability to put our faith in the right and wrong things . Many people have faith in something. We Are saved by Believing the Gosepl which is simple .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Wow.... This is heresy and it is illogical. If no one is saved by Jesus' death, then He never had to die. To claim that His death does not work to save us is heresy.
No . The error is believing salvation is secured by the death of Christ ( of course we cannot be saved without the Death ) The point is that were not saved by his death. We are not saved by the Resurection , unless we believe the Gospel . Then we need to appropriate salvation . That is conditional upon ' believing the Gospel.


Then unbelievers must go to heaven too.



I agree that His life has a great bearing on our salviation, but how are we saved by His life without His death doing anything?

The Archangel

 

[Barry Johnson]

Wow.... This is heresy and it is illogical. If no one is saved by Jesus' death, then He never had to die. To claim that His death does not work to save us is heresy.



Then unbelievers must go to heaven too.



I agree that His life has a great bearing on our salviation, but how are we saved by His life without His death doing anything?

The Archangel

Why would unbelievers go to heaven by the death burial and resurrection if they never receive the atonement ( Roman's 5 )
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[1689Dave]

Where does sight , taste , hearing etc. come from ? I believe their all gifts . The bible however has many words and sometimes the same words have different meanings in different contexts. ' Saving faith ' ' measure of faith ' from faith to faith ' ect. It's clear we use this ' faith ' we have the ability to put our faith in the right and wrong things . Many people have faith in something. We Are saved by Believing the Gosepl which is simple .

Faith comes after salvation and God provides it. It is not faith if misplaced.

 

[1689Dave]

no one is saved by the death of Christ. And yes he paid for the sin of unbelief. We are saved by his life . We are only saved after we believe . We are not saved when Jesus paid for sins .

So why did Jesus die on the cross?

 

[1689Dave]

I see where you are confused now. when Jesus died on the cross he payed for all sins . Question: where you redeemed when He died on the cross or when you believed?

I was saved before the foundation of the world based on Christ's blood, shed for me in time. I believed as a result of this. Eternal life has no beginning or end.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Faith comes after salvation and God provides it. It is not faith if misplaced.

ok notice the order of salvation here in Eph 1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Notice a person here has heard the Gosepl and trusted ' the word of truth ' . And after this they were sealed by the Holy Spirit .
People can place there trust in the Quran they can believe In Morminism and believe in the book Of Mormon , The watchtower , ect but they cant believe truth of the Bible ? All of sudden they cant place their trust and believe in the Gosepl when heard ? somehow this information which is From the Holy Spirit all of a sudden this truth cannot be believed? . The bible commands and expects people to believe and holds them accountable to believe.