The Arminian Trinity

[HankD]

I think the only spirits wounded are those who discover they cannot successfully defend their positions and, rather than digging deeper into the word, they take it personally.

How else can they take it Tom with the caliber/quality of learning here at the BB?
Many souls leave never to return or to remain in the background wounded and lost to any reclamation.
personally I don't know if there is a solution apart from a special work of the Spirit of God.

To this very day I still join in. Well meaning but coming back at a later time reading my post(s) and seeing my insensitivity to others.

I, personally, find such discussions quite valuable for two reasons. First to sharpen my ability to defend my understanding, and secondly, to learn how the other side defends theirs.

I can agree with this part but still I find myself repeatedly thinking of the both historical and metaphorical biblical account of the following among the brethren of Israel:

Judges 12
4 Then Jephthah gathered together all the men of Gilead, and fought with Ephraim: and the men of Gilead smote Ephraim, because they said, Ye Gileadites are fugitives of Ephraim among the Ephraimites, and among the Manassites.
5 And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay;
6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.


HankD

 

[thatbrian]

Oh, I dunno. I've been a member of this board longer than most. I've watched quite a few discussions; just don't recall seeing this verse debated before.

As for the aecond point, yes, I'll be happy to google that; but don't forget your own words:
"With the help of some of my Calvinistic friends I hope, I will attempt to convince those of you who are of the "free will" group, of the proper meaning of these texts and look forward to debating each point with as many reasonable, rational, opponents as there are willing and able to do so."

Thanks, Don. I wasn't shirking my responsibility, but simply trying to prove to you that this is a popular verse among Arminians. I didn't want you to take my word for it. That's all.

 

[thatbrian]

Which is why I usually don't get involved in this debate area.

Well, it's my hope that we can have a calm and reasonable discussion.

 

[InTheLight]

Another post that proves you have absolutely no understanding of what spiritual death is.

Being "spiritually dead" and "spiritual death" are two different concepts, are they not?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Thanks, Don. I wasn't shirking my responsibility, but simply trying to prove to you that this is a popular verse among Arminians. I didn't want you to take my word for it. That's all.

It's of popular use by Molinists specifically.....moreso than rote "Arminians". That may be where the disconnect lies.

 

[thatbrian]

Generally i would agree but the donnybrook and the heat generated by the freeforall debate betwixt C and A rather than learning something a greater wedge is driven between brethren.

What is learned is that the flesh is alive and well amidst brethren.

I suppose that's OK if we don't carry a grudge but it seems there have been wounded spirits caused by this debate.

HankD

Hank, if you have remained on the fence over this issue, and are dead set on never coming to a decision regarding these doctrines, why post in this thread? Obviously, you are free to post wherever you like, but your input already is seeking to undermine the idea behind this thread and stir up dissension among brothers.

What's your goal here?

 

[kyredneck]

It's highly unlikely that a Roman Centurion, a Gentile, was regenerated at the outset of Jesus' earthly ministry.

I see it exactly opposite than you. The fact that the centurion exhibited that sort of faith, and respect for Christ, is evidence that he was born from above, a child of the heavenly Zion.

Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Are you insinuating that God had no 'lost sheep' among the Gentiles before Christ? The gospel was "to the Jew first". Christ's ministry was, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). Even after the so called 'great commission' was given, the Apostles still followed Christ's command of Matthew 10:5 all the way up to Cornelius in Acts 10. And even then Peter was called on the carpet for going to the Gentiles in Acts 11.

So why does Ezekiel 36 apply to Gentiles?

Because the new covenant is the restoration of all things. The Church IS the 'Israel of God'.

 

[thatbrian]

I see it exactly opposite than you. The fact that the centurion exhibited that sort of faith, and respect for Christ, is evidence that he was born from above, a child of the heavenly Zion.

Yes, Good point. The same could be said for, "The Theif on the Cross".

 

[InTheLight]

I see it exactly opposite than you. The fact that the centurion exhibited that sort of faith, and respect for Christ, is evidence that he was born from above, a child of the heavenly Zion.

I see it as the fact that the Centurion lived in Capernaum, the same town as Jesus, and thus would have heard about the talk of Jesus being the son of God and of Jesus healing people. You are applying a logical fallacy here to your Calvinistic beliefs--the cart before the horse. (Calvinists do this with the thief on the cross, Cornelius and Lydia as well.) You're saying the Centurion was regenerated because he had faith.

Are you insinuating that God had no 'lost sheep' among the Gentiles before Christ? The gospel was "to the Jew first". Christ's ministry was, "I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). Even after the so called 'great commission' was given, the Apostles still followed Christ's command of Matthew 10:5 all the way up to Cornelius in Acts 10. And even then Peter was called on the carpet for going to the Gentiles in Acts 11.

To the apostles the gospel was a mystery--they didn't understand it or know what it was. This is evidenced by the many times it is said that they did not understand what Jesus was talking about when he said he must be killed and be resurrected in three days. Basically they went around to the Jews saying Jesus was the Messiah. There was no point in proclaiming that Jesus was the Messiah to Gentiles, since they weren't looking for Messiah.

Because the new covenant is the restoration of all things. The Church IS the 'Israel of God'.

Uh-huh. Sure.

 

[kyredneck]

The same could be said for, "The Theif on the Cross".

It's a hard thing for many to grasp that the thief on the cross could be an errant child of God who had committed the "sin unto death".

 

[thatbrian]

It's a hard thing for many to grasp that the thief on the cross could be an errant child of God who had committed the "sin unto death".

It's a hard thing for many who tout "works" as necessary for salvation, too.

 

[HankD]

Hank, if you have remained on the fence over this issue, and are dead set on never coming to a decision regarding these doctrines, why post in this thread? Obviously, you are free to post wherever you like, but your input already is seeking to undermine the idea behind this thread and stir up dissension among brothers.

What's your goal here?

To show you that God can not be poured into your preconceived can.

HankD

 

[thatbrian]

To show you that God can not be poured into your preconceived can.

HankD

He can only be poured into your can, right? Funny that you are blind to the irony contained in your answer Hank. If you figure it out, please come back and LMK. Thanks!

 

[kyredneck]

Because the new covenant is the restoration of all things.The Church IS the 'Israel of God'.

Uh-huh. Sure.

Yea. Right.

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Mt 16

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Acts 15

 

[thatbrian]

Because the new covenant is the restoration of all things. The Church IS the 'Israel of God'.

Yes, and thank God for that!

 

[InTheLight]

Yea. Right.

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Mt 16

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Acts 15

And this is relevant to Ezekiel 36....how?

 

[Felipe Rios]

One thing I have found out... the Calvinist will always be right

 

[thatbrian]

One thing I have found out... the Calvinist will always be right

Yes! Now you are getting somewhere! Finally!

 

[TCassidy]

How else can they take it Tom with the caliber/quality of learning here at the BB?

Take it in the spirit it is offered? I am by nature didactic. I am a Pastor/Teacher. My ministry for the past 45 years has been the exposition of God's word. I don't see any valid reason to stop doing what God prepared me to do.

Many souls leave never to return or to remain in the background wounded and lost to any reclamation.

For what reason do they leave? Has sound doctrine driven them away? Or have their egos been so bruised they crawl off to sulk. I have been on this forum for over 17 years and, with the exception of taking time off to battle life threatening health issues, I have never been tempted to crawl off and sulk?

personally I don't know if there is a solution apart from a special work of the Spirit of God.

I think the best solution is to remain open minded. Let the scriptures, not our preconceptions, be our guide.

 

[TCassidy]

One thing I have found out... the Calvinist will always be right

And the non-Calvinist will always be right (at least in his own mind).

But the question is not "Are you right?" Or "Am I right?" The question is "What sayeth the scriptures?" God is always right.