The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?4

[Brightfame52]

BF when you make statements like “all for whom He did die, they are delivered from the legal and judicial guilt of all their sins, as well as from the penalty of sin, Death.” So are those you speak of in Adam or not? If they are in Adam than guess what they die, and that is one of the penalties of sin. Christ’s death was sufficient to pay for the sins of all mankind but is only efficient for those that believe.

1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

So if we couple what you said “all for whom He did die, they are delivered from the legal and judicial guilt of all their sins, as well as from the penalty of sin, Death.” and what the bible says “who is the Savior of all men” then that would lead me to say you must be a universalist.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Here you wrote “All for whom He died have no sins charged against them because of Christ's Work” Strange don’t you think how the bile does not agree with you. Christ’s work, as you call it, does not save anyone but it does provide for the way of salvation, faith in Him. We have to have faith in the “risen” Christ or we are still in our sins.
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

You were partly correct when you spoke about Rom 5:18 but because of your theology you want to limit it.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

The bible shows us that because of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus any man can be saved through faith in Him.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So you don't believe that the death of Christ alone actually saved the ones He died for. Correct?

 

[Brightfame52]

Raised and Exalted a Prince and Saviour !

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Now scripture here states that He was raised /exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour ! Now what does it mean really that Christ was raised to be a Saviour ?

Its because those for whom He died, and was raised again for their Justification as Per Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Its because all those are Saved ! He could not be a Risen and Exalted Saviour and Prince without Saved subjects. Sorry, but He was not exalted to be a potential Prince and Saviour for those He died, but a legitimate, bonifide and actual Saviour of actual individuals.

And that's to whom the Gospel is sent to, to announce to them the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

And the Gospel to them [the saved] is God's Power [Rom 1:16] persuades them to believe in their Salvation of Christ.

So the Gospel is sent as the Power of God to convert those who are saved by regeneration[Christ's Resurrection Life] Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If those Christ died for and rose again in behalf of are not saved by that, then He did not raise as their Saviour.14

 

[Silverhair]

See the Op post were I explained my biblical position on for whom Christ died!

I read your OP and that is where you say that Christ dies for those th

See the Op post were I explained my biblical position on for whom Christ died!

I read the OP and see where you said this "What the death of Christ accomplished of its own merit for all those that He offered Himself in behalf of" and as I show you Christ came to save all
or do you not agree with the text of the bible?
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So that is why I asked if you hold to a universalist view. But since I do not think you are one, could be wrong though, I don't see how your view, as you present it, even comes close to what the bible says.

The bible tells us that Christ Jesus is the "Savior of all men" and yet by what you write you say that is wrong. How do you square that circle?

 

[Silverhair]

So you don't believe that the death of Christ alone actually saved the ones He died for. Correct?

When Christ Jesus died on the cross He paid the sin debt but if He was not risen then we would still be in our sin.
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

The fact that Christ Jesus covered our sins does not equate to us not being held responsible for our sins. If we do not accept Christ Jesus as Lord and savoiur then we will be the ones to pay for our sins. In other words what Christ Jesus did was sufficient to expiate all man kinds sins but it is only efficient for those that trust in Him for their salvation.

The question you have to answer is, "who did Christ Jesus die for"
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Notice the requirement stated here.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So that there is no misunderstanding on your part. The death of Christ Jesus saved no one, it paid the sin debt. When He was risen then it made everyone saveable, those that believe are those that are saved. Those that do not believe are not saved.

 

[37818]

When Christ Jesus died on the cross He paid the sin debt but if He was not risen then we would still be in our sin.
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

What is not commonly understood was Christ had two deaths on the cross. One was to pay the sin debt and the physical death for resurrection to show the sin debt was paid as stated.

 

[Brightfame52]

I read your OP and that is where you say that Christ dies for those th


I read the OP and see where you said this "What the death of Christ accomplished of its own merit for all those that He offered Himself in behalf of" and as I show you Christ came to save all
or do you not agree with the text of the bible?
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So that is why I asked if you hold to a universalist view. But since I do not think you are one, could be wrong though, I don't see how your view, as you present it, even comes close to what the bible says.

The bible tells us that Christ Jesus is the "Savior of all men" and yet by what you write you say that is wrong. How do you square that circle?

If you read the Op then you should know exactly I testify of only Gods elect Christ died for. Why would you ask me about universalism. Thats for someone who believes Christ died for and saved all without exception.

 

[Brightfame52]

When Christ Jesus died on the cross He paid the sin debt but if He was not risen then we would still be in our sin.
1Co_15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

The fact that Christ Jesus covered our sins does not equate to us not being held responsible for our sins. If we do not accept Christ Jesus as Lord and savoiur then we will be the ones to pay for our sins. In other words what Christ Jesus did was sufficient to expiate all man kinds sins but it is only efficient for those that trust in Him for their salvation.

The question you have to answer is, "who did Christ Jesus die for"
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Notice the requirement stated here.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So that there is no misunderstanding on your part. The death of Christ Jesus saved no one, it paid the sin debt. When He was risen then it made everyone saveable, those that believe are those that are saved. Those that do not believe are not saved.

So you don't believe that the death of Christ alone actually saved the ones He died for. Correct? Yes or No

 

[Silverhair]

So you don't believe that the death of Christ alone actually saved the ones He died for. Correct? Yes or No

Do you have a problem understanding what I wrote? Yes or No The answer to your question was very clear. If English is not your first language then I can see that you might have a problem but other that that why the silly questions.

 

[Silverhair]

If you read the Op then you should know exactly I testify of only Gods elect Christ died for. Why would you ask me about universalism. Thats for someone who believes Christ died for and saved all without exception.

But if you make the statements that you do and they do not agree with the bible text then do you not see that you have a problem with what you are saying.

 

[Silverhair]

If you read the Op then you should know exactly I testify of only Gods elect Christ died for. Why would you ask me about universalism. Thats for someone who believes Christ died for and saved all without exception.

Further to what I had said. You wrote: "This offering was not for all in the World without exception, but is qualified to only those who are set apart or sanctified legally and then experimentally"

How do you square your statement with:
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You are in clear contradiction with the bible. You have to read into scripture what you want to find because it is not in the text.

So do you see that you are misreading scripture? Yes or No

 

[Brightfame52]

Do you have a problem understanding what I wrote? Yes or No The answer to your question was very clear. If English is not your first language then I can see that you might have a problem but other that that why the silly questions.

Halt with the insults, Just a plain yes or no !

 

[Brightfame52]

But if you make the statements that you do and they do not agree with the bible text then do you not see that you have a problem with what you are saying.

I said it in the OP that this is about Gods Elect, please pay attention. So you know, whenever Im posting about Salvation matters, its exclusively about the Elect. No need to wonder

 

[Brightfame52]

Further to what I had said. You wrote: "This offering was not for all in the World without exception, but is qualified to only those who are set apart or sanctified legally and then experimentally"

How do you square your statement with:
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You are in clear contradiction with the bible. You have to read into scripture what you want to find because it is not in the text.

So do you see that you are misreading scripture? Yes or No

There's nothing to square, all Salvation verses are exclusively pertaining to the Elect, they are the only ones saved by God through Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

Halt with the insults, Just a plain yes or no !

Then answer the question as no insult was intended. My answer was in the reply I made. If you can not understand it then just say so.

 

[Silverhair]

I said it in the OP that this is about Gods Elect, please pay attention. So you know, whenever Im posting about Salvation matters, its exclusively about the Elect. No need to wonder

But as the bible say, and you disagree with, Christ Jesus die for the whole world not just the elect as you seem to tthink.

 

[Silverhair]

There's nothing to square, all Salvation verses are exclusively pertaining to the Elect, they are the only ones saved by God through Christ.

Actually you have it backwards, the ones saved are the elect. Only those that are in Christ Jesus are the elect and you get to be in Christ when you trust in Him for salvation not before.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Brightfame52]

The Free Gift is Justification of Life, not a offer !

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All for whom Christ died, here in this verse called " the righteousness of one" He obtained for them Justification of Life, in other words, all for whom He died and Justified, as an evidence of it, receive Life, Spiritual Life. All for whom He died receive as an Gift, the Effectual Working the Spirit to Life and Salvation. This Gift of Life is bestowed upon them in New Birth.

The HB reads:

So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.

The GWT reads:

Therefore, everyone was condemned through one failure, and everyone received God's life-giving approval through one verdict.

When Jesus said that lifting up [ crucifixion/death on tree] He will draw all men to Him, that's the Life of being Justified.

The Spirit must give Life to all for whom Christ died. Not one soul He died for shall remain in spiritual death, that contradicts the Gift of Justification of Life.

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually you have it backwards, the ones saved are the elect. Only those that are in Christ Jesus are the elect and you get to be in Christ when you trust in Him for salvation not before.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Post 62 Do you understand it ?

 

[Silverhair]

Raised and Exalted a Prince and Saviour !

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Now scripture here states that He was raised /exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour ! Now what does it mean really that Christ was raised to be a Saviour ?

Its because those for whom He died, and was raised again for their Justification as Per Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Its because all those are Saved ! He could not be a Risen and Exalted Saviour and Prince without Saved subjects. Sorry, but He was not exalted to be a potential Prince and Saviour for those He died, but a legitimate, bonifide and actual Saviour of actual individuals.

And that's to whom the Gospel is sent to, to announce to them the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

And the Gospel to them [the saved] is God's Power [Rom 1:16] persuades them to believe in their Salvation of Christ.

So the Gospel is sent as the Power of God to convert those who are saved by regeneration[Christ's Resurrection Life] Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If those Christ died for and rose again in behalf of are not saved by that, then He did not raise as their Saviour.14

Having read through your post, what I find is just what I expected to be there.

You make many broad brush assumptions because of the theological lens that you look through. The fact that the bible does not support your view does not seem to matter to you.

Taking text out of context and adding your own spin to the words does not make them right. I have shown you a number of scriptures that show your error but you just ignore them. That is your choice.

 

[Silverhair]

The Free Gift is Justification of Life, not a offer !

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All for whom Christ died, here in this verse called " the righteousness of one" He obtained for them Justification of Life, in other words, all for whom He died and Justified, as an evidence of it, receive Life, Spiritual Life. All for whom He died receive as an Gift, the Effectual Working the Spirit to Life and Salvation. This Gift of Life is bestowed upon them in New Birth.

The HB reads:

So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.

The GWT reads:

Therefore, everyone was condemned through one failure, and everyone received God's life-giving approval through one verdict.

When Jesus said that lifting up [ crucifixion/death on tree] He will draw all men to Him, that's the Life of being Justified.

The Spirit must give Life to all for whom Christ died. Not one soul He died for shall remain in spiritual death, that contradicts the Gift of Justification of Life.

Please learn how to read. You insist on twisting a clear text into something that is unreadable.

even so by the righteousness of one {Christ Jesus} the free gift {Salvation} came upon all {not just some} men unto justification of life.

Pleas note the following text:

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself {Christ Jesus} is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

And why does He do this for us:
1Ti 4:9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

You want to limit those that are saved to your select group but the bible tells us that salvation is possible for anyone if they will just believe, or do you not trust scripture?
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,