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Featured The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?4

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Jan 21, 2022.

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  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF you have shown in many post that you are willing to ignore what clear scripture says but will read into or twist scripture to justify your theology.

    I know that you and others will wave your hands and say that I do not understand your view. But that is where the problem comes in isn't it. I do understand your theology and it is not in the text of the bible.

    I count myself fortunate that I grew up not being influenced by either Calvinism or Arminianism. I learned to trust what the bible says in clear text.

    I do not pretend to know all that the bible teaches but I do know who can and how they can be saved. I do pray that God will remove the scales from your eyes so you can see and understand the bible.
     
  2. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    So according to Acts 5:31 what does a Prince and Saviour do ?
     
  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Do you believe in Rom 5:18 an offer is being made ?
     
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The fruit of Christ's Death !

    John 12:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    This scripture condemns all who reject the Truth that Christ's Death, His dying, saved all for whom He died, in and of itself. This verse tells us if that Corn of Wheat dies , which means Christ, it brings forth much fruit.

    Now what is the much fruit ? The fruit is Justification before God. Rom 5:19

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    To be made Righteous is Justification before God, which is the fruit of Christ's Death or dying for the many He died for.

    The fruit is Redemption Heb 9:15

    And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    The word redemption here is the greek word apolytrōsis and means:

    a releasing effected by payment of ransom

    a) redemption, deliverance

    b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

    The fruit His Death is liberation, deliverance, a releasing. Those He died for are released from all penalty of sin, and they are liberated from being a servant of sin, Christ sets them free. Jn 8:32-36

    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

    36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    The word free is the greek word eleutheroō :

    to make free

    2) set at liberty: from the dominion of sin

    The fruit of Christ dying is that those He died for are set free from the dominion of sin.

    The fruit of Christ's Death is the New Birth or being born again 1 Pet 1:3

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    This being begotten again is New Birth or Born Again. Begotten again. Its the greek word anagennaō:

    to produce again, be born again, born anew

    2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God


    This means that the fruit of Christ's Death produces a New Life [Spiritual] New Birth in order that those Christ died for can now Live unto God according to His Will and Purpose.

    The fruit of Christ's Death is that it gives conversion. It gives a Change of Mind, which is Repentance.

    The word for Repentance is metanoia d means :

    a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

    Now what does anagennaō mean above for begotten again ?

    metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

    So Repentance is a Fruit of Christ dying Jn 12:24

    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    To deny this is to deny Christ, deny His Death, Deny His Cross, it deny's the Saving Fruit of His Death its simply against Christ ! 14
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ's Death effects the births of many brethern!


    Rom 8:29

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    To this end Christ did die and rise again, that He should be the Firstborn of many brethren Rom 8:29-30

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Remember Jesus was speaking of His Death here Jn 12:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    Well that much fruit brought forth are the many brethren He is he firstborn of .

    The word born in firstborn Rom 8:29 its the word tiktō and means:

    to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)

    Now see how that complements Jn 12:24 and this is effected y His Death, being that Corn of wheat that falls into the Ground and die. This is referring to His Death.

    It is those also Peter writes that they have been begotten again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    This is the Fruit as a result of the Corn of Wheat falling to the ground and dying.
     
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    It made them Righteous or Justified !

    Many today in false religion do deny that Christ's Death alone, in and of itself, for those He died in behalf of, that it constituted them Righteous or Justified. However that is exactly what Rom 5:19 teaches Rom 5:19

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    The One here in the second section is Jesus Christ, and the obedience is His Death as Per Phil 2:8

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    His Obedience is His Death of the Cross. Now pay attention to its sure effects, it made many Righteous, which is to be Justified. The word Justified in scripture : The greek word dikaioo:


    to render righteous or such he ought to be

    2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

    So His Death, His Obedience will show many to be made Righteous.

    The word made in Rom 5:19 is the word kathistēmi:

    to set, place, put

    a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)

    b) to appoint one to administer an office

    c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

    d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be

    e) to conduct or bring to a certain place

    f) to show or exhibit one's self

    1) come forward as


    So, this is an accomplishment of the Death of Chris alone, for the Many He died for, all of them.

    To deny this effect and result of the Sole Death of Christ is denying Christ, its against Christ !

    Everyone Christ died for is declared Righteous, which also means they have Christ's Righteousness Imputed to them.

    All for whom He died have His Complete Obedience as The Son of God in the flesh charged to their account, just as their sins and demerit were charged to His Account.
     
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    It saves from the power of sin.

    One of the accomplishments of the Death of Christ for all whom He died, is that He saves them from the power of sin. To be saved from the power of sin is to be also saved from unbelief, yes unbelief in one is because the power of sin is reigning in them. They are while in unbelief under the power of darkness Col 1:13

    Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Or from the domain or authority of darkness. As such are minds are blinded from believing the Gospel 2 Cor 4:3-4

    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    That word for blindness actually means to darken the mind, which is part of the power of darkness. Before we can believe we must be delivered from this power and Christ's Death accomplishes that, Redemption.14
     
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Saved from God's Wrath !

    1 Jn 2:2

    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    The whole world [jew and gentile people] here is a propitiated world, and as such, they have been saved from God's Wrath through Christ's Blood Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Rom 3:25

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    All who Christ's Blood propitiated God's wrath for or in behalf of, are given Faith in His Blood.

    His Blood has saved them from wrath. It has delivered them from going down into the pit Zech 9:11

    As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.14
     
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christ's Healing Stripes !

    1 Peter 2:24

    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    Christ's Healing stripes results in those He died for, those whose sins He bear in His own Body on the tree, results in them living unto righteousness, which is to live by Faith.
     
  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Turns us into a Kingdom or Priests.

    Christ's death alone is seen to effect and to save experimentally all for whom He Loved and died for here Rev 1:5-6

    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Now it is stated that through or by His Love and Blood [Death] that those he died for are experimentally made Kings and Priests. Notice the same Blessed Truth here Rev 5:9-10

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    By His Blood or Death they were made Kings and Priests.

    Now some translate it Rev 1:6

    6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.ASV


    6 And formed us into a kingdom (a royal race), priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the power and the majesty and the dominion throughout the ages and forever and ever. Amen (so be it).AMP

    Which is why Peter says this 1 Peter 2:9

    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    Nevertheless,this status was said to be effected solely by the Blood of Christ.

    They were made said Vs 6

    and hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    This word made both here and in Rev 5:10 is the greek word poieō:

    1) to make

    a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

    b) to be the authors of, the cause

    c) to make ready, to prepare

    d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

    e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

    f) to make a thing out of something

    g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

    1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

    2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

    h) to put one forth, to lead him out

    i) to make one do something

    1) cause one to

    j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

    2) to do

    a) to act rightly, do well

    1) to carry out, to execute

    b) to do a thing unto one

    1) to do to one

    c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

    d) to celebrate, keep

    1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

    e) to perform: to a promise

    His Blood therefore made them to be Priests unto God or caused them to be.

    What this means is that His Blood or Death produces them to live a devoted, consecrated life of Christian Service to God, as it was typed out by the OT Priests did in Israel.

    We can say again, that as a result of His Redemptive Death, those He died for were caused to become a Kingdom of Priests, and to reign with Him in this Life spiritually Rom 5:17

    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

    This had nothing to do with what they did themselves, to say so is detracting from the Work of Christ's Blood, against the scripture witness of His Saving Death. Those He Loved and died for shall be made a Priest unto God, period ! 14
     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Just what the text say, give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Yep sure do. Do you believe what the text says or do you have to twist it to fit your theology?
     
    #92 Silverhair, Mar 19, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You fail to accept the fact that Christ Jesus came to save sinners and since we are all sinners that means He came to save all. God has set the condition for salvation that being faith in His son. So although He came to save all only those that trust in Him will be saved. That is a reality that calvinist will not accept.
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    BF52 you write a lot but you actually say very little. You cherry pick verses that you hope will support your view. The bible was not written that way as you are well aware of. Context is not your friend BF. But you will continue to live in your view.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Your criticism maybe very true. But how do you suppose this is going to help @Brightfame52 to be able to change his understanding of the word of God?
     
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have dealt with BF52 on more than one occasion and all you get is a dismissive reply. I do not mind dealing with people that have an open mind to their understanding of scripture. When you deal with people that only respond with LOL or you do not understand my theology it does get a bit trying.

    FYI I did not grow up with either Arminianism or Calvinism, thankful for that, but just learned to trust what the clear text of the bible says. I had baptist ministers on both sides of my family tree so you could say I am a dyed in the wool baptist.

    The Holy Spirit means what He said and said what H e means. If you have to and or twist scripture to make it fit your theology then you should rethink your theology.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Campion

    Campion Member

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    In reading his posts, they are full of Scripture to support his position. If both of you are using the Scriptures to make your case, what does that say about the ability to resolve exegetical and doctrinal disagreements using Scripture alone?
     
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree he uses scripture to support his view it just not agree with scripture.

    As I said, when a person has to add a special meaning to words then it is hard to get them to understand scripture or for that matter anything else. One theological view that we see on here all the time has the habit of doing that and then claims no one understands their view. Sad really but what can you do if people are willfully blind.
     
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I am in full agreement with this quote from Adrian Rogers:

    “I’m willing to compromise about many things, but not the Word of God. ...I don’t have to be loved; I don’t even have to live. But I will not compromise the Word of God.”

    Do I consider myself a bible scholar, no, but it does mean that I will not deliberately twist or miss use scripture as some on here are want to do.

    The gospel message was given for all not just some, that is what I was taught and that is what I see in scripture.
     
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