The Bible Teaches that Repentance and Faith are Gifts from God.

[Charlie24]

Thats all His Covenant People, see Jesus is Mediator of the New Covenant Heb 8:6-11



So the All men in 1 Tim 2 where Jesus is the Mediator has to correspond to the All in Heb 8:11 where Jesus is the Mediator. So its all of the House of Israel for the New Covenant is for them.

God made the New Covenant in Christ with Israel, and the Gentile Church was grafted in.

The "all" is all of mankind, "whosoever will."

 

[Charlie24]

God made the New Covenant in Christ with Israel, and the Gentile Church was grafted in.

The "all" is all of mankind, "whosoever will."

Acts 17:30-31

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

 

[Van]

1) Does scripture say a lost person cannot understand the gospel. No, as some receive it with joy. See the soils 2,3 and 4 of Matthew 13. A lost person cannot understand spiritual solid food (meat) which are "the things" in view in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

2) Note the reference to Genesis 6:5, where traditional translations say the wickedness of man (inclusive of every fallen human) was great, and the pattern of the thoughts of his heart were continuously evil. But given Genesis 6:8, that translation misrepresents the message! If it read, wickedness of men, then not all people would be necessarily implied, and if "his heart" had been translated "their heart" then a subset of humanity would be in view. For example,

​

​

DRA​

And God seeing that the wickedness of men was great on the earth, and that all the thought of their heart was bent upon evil at all times,​

3) To be enslaved to sin, unable to break free of its outcome of death, does not suggest people do not want to be free, just as Paul did in Romans 7.

4) Yes, an unbeliever is unable to please God, but a person who believes in God can please God, again see Genesis 6:8. Noah was not "made favorable, but was found to already be favorable! Recall God's attributes have been made known by what He has made.

5) Yes, there is no fear within the heart of the ungodly, but others do fear God and seek His refuge.

6) Yes if a professing believers do not love their earthly siblings, they cannot love God. Again and again, the false teacher takes the action of unbelievers and attributes that action to all people. Demonic in its misrepresentation of God's word.

7) Final falsehood, no one claims lost persons make themselves spiritually alive, but that is the false allegation of the opening post. Spiritually dead people seek God, such as the many who seek the narrow door that leads to life. Pay no attention to the deceitful stories, that mislead the unstudied believer, study His word and do not seek to rewrite it according to the traditions of people.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

you missed the most important message Jesus gave in this passage.

After Nicodemus asked. :how can these things be" ie. how does this happen..

As Moses lifted the serpent.

here is the key words.. Go to the story. God had moses lift the serpent. whoever in faith looked lived. whoever did nto look in unbelief died.. They had to make a choice. God did not force one group to look and keep another group from looking. They did it on their own.

In the same token, the son of man must also be lifted. that whoever believes will never perish but live forever. He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.. why? Because he is depraved? Because God kept the truth from him? No. Because he did not believe

From C.H. Spurgeon:
Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher’s sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, “I ascribe my change wholly to God.”

 

[Brightfame52]

Yet another non sequitur! The passage has no mention of "receiving understanding supernaturally via "irresistible grace." That view is simply read into the passage by those who must rewrite scripture to conform with false doctrine.

First they claim the lost cannot understand, based on rewriting 1 Cor. 2:14 as if it said "all the things," then we some of the things are understood, they did not receive it with the necessary understanding. The good ground receives the gospel as stated, rather than rewriting it to conform to the traditions of men.

If you receive the word without understanding, its worthless and unfruitful. You can have all the joy you want, you still dont understand the word.

 

[Brightfame52]

God made the New Covenant in Christ with Israel, and the Gentile Church was grafted in.

The "all" is all of mankind, "whosoever will."

The New Covenant is for The house of Israel and not all men without exception, and Jesus death was in accordance to the New Covenant. He is the One Mediator between God and men, and we know from other scripture He is the Mediator o the New Covenant that has to do with only the House of Israel, all them shall know the Lord Heb 8:11

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

And the Gentile Church is the House of Israel, that was the Mystery. Its Spiritual not carnal

 

[Van]

If you receive the word without understanding, its worthless and unfruitful. You can have all the joy you want, you still dont understand the word.

If God credits your faith as righteousness, your understanding, even if flawed becomes priceless. Try understanding Romans 4!

 

[Charlie24]

The New Covenant is for The house of Israel and not all men without exception, and Jesus death was in accordance to the New Covenant. He is the One Mediator between God and men, and we know from other scripture He is the Mediator o the New Covenant that has to do with only the House of Israel, all them shall know the Lord Heb 8:11

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

And the Gentile Church is the House of Israel, that was the Mystery. Its Spiritual not carnal

Obviously you haven't read Rom. 11 where Paul makes a distinction between Israel and the Gentiles.

Paul plainly tells the Roman Church (Gentiles) they are the wild olive branches grafted into the olive tree with the natural branches (Israel).

The Gentile Church is not Israel! We were grafted into Israel's covenant and we are spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith in Christ. We are not the natural descendants of Abraham.

Paul clearly makes that distinction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

From C.H. Spurgeon:
Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher’s sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, “I ascribe my change wholly to God.”

agree with everything here. But not sure how it relates to my post.

 

[Brightfame52]

If God credits your faith as righteousness, your understanding, even if flawed becomes priceless. Try understanding Romans 4!

If you dont have understanding of the word, you dont have faith The word understandeth in Matt 13:23 is the same word here

Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, G4920 there is none that seeketh after God.

So the joy receiver doesnt really understand God, that's not Faith, sorry

 

[Brightfame52]

Obviously you haven't read Rom. 11 where Paul makes a distinction between Israel and the Gentiles.

Paul plainly tells the Roman Church (Gentiles) they are the wild olive branches grafted into the olive tree with the natural branches (Israel).

The Gentile Church is not Israel! We were grafted into Israel's covenant and we are spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith in Christ. We are not the natural descendants of Abraham.

Paul clearly makes that distinction.

The House of Israel in Heb 8 under the New Covenant is the Church, it has jew and gentile in it, but its only One Body Of the House of Israel Eph 2:11-14

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

See that Gentiles are included in the ONE Commonwealth of Israel

Thats the Mystery, but its still only a particular people, not all mankind, for all mankind has never been called Israel, but only a chosen people.

So only Israel benefits from the New Covenant which Christ is the Mediator.

Do you believe the Mediator in 1 Tim 2 is a different Mediator than in Heb 8

 

[Dave G]

I agree that man is totally depraved, as the apostle Paul demonstrated, and Calvin coined. But the apostle Paul also said that faith comes by the hearing of the Word of God.

"Hearing" means "understanding", Charlie.
Have you not read what the Lord Jesus has said regarding this subject?

" And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 11:14 ).
" Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:9 ).
" Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:43 ).
" Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. " ( Matthew 13:18 ) <---- "Hear ye" ( understand, you ) the parable of the sower; which the Lord Jesus then goes on to explain in plain language, doesn't He?

There are many other places, my friend, where the Lord qualifies who does and who does not "hear" His words, especially this one:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ). <--- Here the Lord Jesus tells us who does and who does not "hear" ( or understand ) His words...those who are not "of" God.

God's elect.

 

[Dave G]

So, the "hearing of faith" is reserved to those who can "hear" ( or understand ) God's words, isn't it?
Faith comes by "hearing" ( understanding ) the word of God, doesn't it?

When someone hears God's words preached, and believes them, they do so because they are one of the ones given to Christ by the Father.

The Gospel message given by you and me to the lost contains the faith to believe,

No, Charlie, not according to the Scriptures it doesn't.
In fact, the "hearing" of God's word is limited to those who are "of" God.

The Holy Spirit produces that faith to believe in that message given.

In those of His elect, I would agree.

The choice is given to man by God, not God making the choice for him.

Quite the contrary... and the Bible answers that, by telling us who can and cannot "hear" God's word.

Without the "hearing" ( or understanding ) of God's very words, no one will believe them.
That is what everything that the Lord tells us about man's condition gives us a very detailed picture of...

Why some believe His words, and why others do not.

He also spelled it out when He told the Jews who did not understand His words, why they did not "hear"...
Because they were not "of" God.
The choice of who God will save and who He will not is already addressed in His word.

Please keep reading, my friend.

 

[Charlie24]

"Hearing" means "understanding", Charlie.
Have you not read what the Lord Jesus has said regarding this subject?

" And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 11:14 ).
" Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:9 ).
" Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:43 ).
" Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. " ( Matthew 13:18 ) <---- "Hear ye" ( understand, you ) the parable of the sower; which the Lord Jesus then goes on to explain in plain language, doesn't He?

There are many other places, my friend, where the Lord qualifies who does and who does not "hear" His words, especially this one:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ). <--- Here the Lord Jesus tells us who does and who does not "hear" ( or understand ) His words...those who are not "of" God.

God's elect.

Absolutely not, Dave G!

All of us came to Christ through the hearing of the Gospel, no exceptions!

They could not hear the words of Christ because they loved the things of the world, the things of Satan, the reason Christ told them Satan was their father, and that they would do the things of their father.

It was a choice, Dave G, they chose that way.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Charlie24

I agree that man is totally depraved, as the apostle Paul demonstrated, and Calvin coined. But the apostle Paul also said that faith comes by the hearing of the Word of God.

Thats for the regenerated who already have the seed of Faith planted in them. The unregenerate dont qualify for this because they spiritually dead and dont have spiritual hearing.

 

[Brightfame52]

So, the "hearing of faith" is reserved to those who can "hear" ( or understand ) God's words, isn't it?
Faith comes by "hearing" ( understanding ) the word of God, doesn't it?

When someone hears God's words preached, and believes them, they do so because they are one of the ones given to Christ by the Father.

No, Charlie, not according to the Scriptures it doesn't.
In fact, the "hearing" of God's word is limited to those who are "of" God.

In those of His elect, I would agree.

Quite the contrary... and the Bible answers that, by telling us who can and cannot "hear" God's word.

Without the "hearing" ( or understanding ) of God's very words, no one will believe them.
That is what everything that the Lord tells us about man's condition gives us a very detailed picture of...

Why some believe His words, and why others do not.

He also spelled it out when He told the Jews who did not understand His words, why they did not "hear"...
Because they were not "of God.
The choice of who God will save and who He will not is already addressed in His word.

Please keep reading, my friend.

Also the hearing of Faith can only apply to the already Justified/righteous. All whom Jesus made righteous/just shall be made to hear Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous or just. Same word in the original.

So the promise to the just is this Rom 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Thats why the Gospel to them is the power of God Vs 16

 

[Dave G]

All of us came to Christ through the hearing of the Gospel, no exceptions!

Some believe, some don't.
Some who think they have believed, do not believe "to the saving of the soul" and fall away under trials and temptations... while others do not.

Again, God's word tells us, ultimately, why some do and why some do not...
Only it seems you're not reading and believing the words on the page.

I don't for sure know why, but perhaps, like it has for me, it's just taking a while to sink in.

 

[Dave G]

They could not hear the words of Christ because they loved the things of the world, the things of Satan, the reason Christ told them Satan was their father, and that they would do the things of their father.

That's part of it.
Then there's the rest, Charlie:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:43-47 ).

" But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

My friend, are you "hearing" God's words?

It was a choice, Dave G, they chose that way.

Yes, they sure did...
As would any one of God's elect, were it not for His gifts given to them.

Gifts like repentance, which must be granted to someone by the Lord Himself because of our love of sin and hatred of Him and His ways...
and faith, which was authored and finished by Jesus Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24



Thats for the regenerated who already have the seed of Faith planted in them. The unregenerate dont qualify for this because they spiritually dead and dont have spiritual hearing.

All of us were spiritually dead before we heard the Gospel and chose to believe God.

TULIP is an evil in this world teaching man that God doesn't love everyone, and saves whom He chooses.

Many will give up and say I've done to much wrong in my life for God to accept me, I'm one that He doesn't love.

God help us!

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is "Good News" Jesus loves you and wants to save you from your sin, and He will if you will only believe and trust Him!

Established religion is the worst enemy of the Cross of Christ.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for teaching such heresy!

 

[Dave G]

You should be ashamed of yourselves for teaching such heresy!

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. " ( Romans 1:16 ).

My friend, I can't speak for @Brightfame52, but I'm not ashamed of the Gospel that Paul preached, nor am I ashamed of the very same Gospel that Peter, James and John preached...
The same Gospel that was given to them by their Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Respectfully speaking,
If I were you, I would go back to the Scriptures and be sure of every word, sir...
For it is in those words that you will find the answers to the things that it seems you are railing against.
It is in those words where I find those same answers.


May God bless you.