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The Blessed Virgin St. Mary the Mother of God.
- Thread starter VDMA
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You and Mary are equal at the foot of the Cross, brother.
It’s man’s haughty spirit who elevates one above another.
VDMA
Member
Ummm, you never answered the question. Let me rephrase the question. Do you believe the blessed virgin Mary is the mother of God?
She is chief of all the saints.
God is Triune. "GOD" is comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Calling Mary "the mother of God" implies that she is the source of all three. That she was the beginning of the Father, the Son,and the Holy Spirit. That she was in existence, as a human woman, BEFORE the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
If she is the mother of God - then who is the father of God?
The term "mother of God" puts Mary in authority over him, makes her a deity, and makes it necessary to worship her AS a deity.
VDMA
Member
Never said anything about worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary. Even the Papist church forbids worshiping the Blessed Virgin St. Mary according to their own Catechism. I’m a confessional Lutheran.
All theology is Christology. The Blessed Virgin Saint Mary is the Theotokos (God bearer) the Ark of the living God, the Mother of God.
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God – by saying, for example, that she is instead merely the Mother of Christ, or “Christotokos” – is to deny the true union of the divine and human natures in Christ. In other words, to deny the orthodox doctrine of the Incarnation.
There should be no debate on this issue. It is one of the beautiful implications of the mystery of the Trinity. “For Mary not to be mother of God, she must either: 1) Not be our Lord’s mother (as might be confessed by Docetists), or 2) Jesus is not God (as confessed by the Arians. Both heresies are contrary to Scripture.
Luk 1:42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luk 1:43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
The Blessed Virgin St. Mary is the Theotokos.
This is really simple.
1) Jesus is God.
2) Mary is Jesus’ mother.
3) Mary is mother of God.
Conclusion: Mary is mother of God, for Jesus is God!
The title “mother of God” smoked out the Nestorians, and to this day it remains a helpful Shibboleth to test Christological orthodoxy.
She is the Mother of Jesus, but is not as Rome ascribes to her as being!
Jesus IS God. So is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
I don't understand why it's so hard to see that the term "mother of God" implies that she is the mother of all three. It's just simple vocabulary and semantics.
My believing that Mary is NOT the mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not negate her role in bearing Jesus.
C'est la vie.
I don't understand why it's so hard to see that the term "mother of God" implies that she is the mother of all three. It's just simple vocabulary and semantics.
My believing that Mary is NOT the mother of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not negate her role in bearing Jesus.
C'est la vie.
I suppose I’d ask ... why the fascination with Mary?
she said herself she’’s. A servant ... just like the rest of us who follow Jesus.
So why insist on this title of elevation?
She is very special in th story of redemption, but she is NOT the Redemption. I find this to be a distraction at best.
We don’t worship Paul and the Spirit used him to write most ofthe non-gospel NT. He is the most wretched of all, he said.
So ... why can’t we be content to recognize Mary for who SHE is?
she said herself she’’s. A servant ... just like the rest of us who follow Jesus.
So why insist on this title of elevation?
She is very special in th story of redemption, but she is NOT the Redemption. I find this to be a distraction at best.
We don’t worship Paul and the Spirit used him to write most ofthe non-gospel NT. He is the most wretched of all, he said.
So ... why can’t we be content to recognize Mary for who SHE is?
She was the Mother of Jesus period!
umm no she is not the mother of God. God used her to deliver Jesus here on earth. Only Jesus not the triune God head. Further, Jesus had always existed so she is not a mother to Jesus in the same fashion that you and I have mothers.
There is no scripture to suggest she is chief of saints.
VDMA
Member
Not every Baptist takes issue with calling Mary, the blessed mother. As we read in the Magnificat: “from now on all generations will call me blessed.”
There should be no debate on this issue.
I will reiterate, to deny that Mary is the Mother of God – that she is instead merely the Mother of Christ, or “Christotokos” – is to deny the true union of the divine and human natures in Christ. In other words, to deny the orthodox doctrine of the Incarnation.
For Mary not to be mother of God, she must either: 1) Not be our Lord’s mother (as might be confessed by Docetists), or 2) Jesus is not God (as confessed by the Arians. Both heresies are contrary to Scripture.
Also, it should go without saying, to ignore the Blessed Virgin Mary makes no sense. Without her our Christology is shot. Without her our understanding of sin and grace is incomplete. Without her we cannot call ourselves part of the Body of Christ. This woman is our Mother, commended to the Church by our Lord Himself. And to ignore her is something no Christian should ever do.
In typical fashion, Baptist/evangelicals lump her together with the other saints of the New Testament. But the Blessed Mother is nothing of the sort. She is no ordinary saint. She is the saint of saints. She is the Theotokos. The Blessed Mother is the example that all Christians should emulate. Her “Yes” to the angel Gabriel is an act of faith that sets the standard for all of the Church to follow. And yet when was the last time you heard a sermon, sat through a Bible Class, or read a Baptist Protestant commend the Blessed Virgin Mary as such?
I will say it again to deny that the blessed virgin Saint Mary is the mother of God - you are on dangerous grounds.
For those who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Mary does nothing but point people to her Son - Christ Jesus.
Strange things happens when you have a moment that is largely non-confessional, anti-creedal and anti-Catholic for the sake of being anti-Catholic. It keeps marching it down the road to the point where you are denying clear biblical teachings, such as calling the blessed virgin Mary the mother of God.
Again there are many Baptist, especially in the Reformed flavors, that do not have a problem referring to the blessed virgin St. Mary as the mother of God. Fact that I am even having this conversation is disturbing.
Even Zwingli (who resurrected Nestorianism) and Calvin would even dare go as far as many modern Baptist. Both upheld calling the blessed virgin St. Mary, the mother of God and her perpetual virginity (which is covered in another post).
VDMA
Member
Yes, Jesus has always existed. You got that part right.
I will reiterate, again, to deny that Mary is the Mother of God – that she is instead merely the Mother of Christ, or “Christotokos” – is to deny the true union of the divine and human natures in Christ. In other words, to deny the orthodox doctrine of the Incarnation.
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well except that is only your claim and an unsubstantiated one at that. Mary is not the Mother of God the Father , nor is she the mother of God the Holy Spirit.
you need to be careful of taking things too far so as to be able to support that which is otherwise unsupportable. Further, you will be unable to show that Mary is the mother of the triune Godhead from scripture. Since you cannot do that your claim is unsupported and at best only borders on heresy.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
First, she is not the “blessed virgin St.Mary…” because she had sex with her husband Joseph and had at least 6 other children after Jesus, according to scripture.
Second, what Scarlett O said.
Denying the human generated title, “mother of God”, in no way denies that Jesus is fully human and fully God.
Your claim that Mary is “chief of the saints” has no biblical support but does support the Catholic misguided practice of praying to saints instead of praying directly to our one and only mediator and High Priest, our Lord Jesus.
peace to you
So, Jesus was not God? Interesting!
Baptists HATE and are horrified are when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension not only of what this particular title of Mary signifies but also of who Jesus was—and of what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.
A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses, because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus “was descended from David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh” (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To avoid this conclusion, Baptists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinct persons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the “Nestorian” church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.
Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary:
"Irenaeus
“The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God” (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).
Gregory the Wonderworker
“For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
“It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (ibid., 2).
Peter of Alexandria
“They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).
“We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).
Methodius
“While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid., 14).
Cyril of Jerusalem
“The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness” (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).
Athanasius
“The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).
Ambrose of Milan
“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).
Gregory of Nazianz
“If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead” (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).
Jerome
“As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing” (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).
“Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia
“When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?” (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).
“This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh” (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).
“And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh” (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).
“If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema”.
John Cassian
“Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).
“You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God” (ibid., 2:5).
“Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God” (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).
“You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God” (ibid., 2:5).
No one said that.
Your problem with claiming that Mary is the mother of God is that God is Triune.
Please answer me this: If Mary is the mother of God - the she, by simple semantics is the mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
THAT'S who God is. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
If she is the mother of those three, then she existed before the God-head and is therefore in authority over the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
......And, if all this is true - then where and whom is their father?
Then we have gone in to the maze of Mormonism, with heavenly Father and Mother!
we do not have to get out of something that is not there. Mary is not the mother of God the Father, nor is she mother of God the Spirit. Her role as mother of Jesus only encompasses His humanity. Since Jesus was before her and is responsible for her creation and existence in this world taking her role beyond His humanity is not only unfounded and illogical but it’s absurd and heresy.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Heard that before, but it doesn’t make logical sense.
Saying that “in Christ” is “the true union of the divine and human natures,” which all affirm, then claiming that saying Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ somehow denies Christ’s divinity is ridiculous. It does no such thing. Rather it affirms everything that Scripture speaks of them both in this matter. There is nothing mere about it, unless one is theologically very confused or deeply wrong.
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