The Blood covenant....so much more...

[12strings]

Go back and read the thread...they were addressed!
Not all are healed today, but why?

I have a word of prophesy

Some time in the future you, or someone you know, will become ill, and despire your prayers, and their prayers, God will not heal them. They may in fact die from this illness. You will be left either be frustrated with yourself and them for not having enough faith...or did not ask God for healing...or conclude that it was God's will to use that illness to bring them home to himself, or to help them be able to identify with other suffering people.

 

[awaken]

I have a word of prophesy

Some time in the future you, or someone you know, will become ill, and despire your prayers, and their prayers, God will not heal them. They may in fact die from this illness. You will be left either be frustrated with yourself and them for not having enough faith...or did not ask God for healing...or conclude that it was God's will to use that illness to bring them home to himself, or to help them be able to identify with other suffering people.

Is this a word from 12strings or a word from the Lord? :laugh:

YOu did not go back and read the other post did you? Where have I said that all will be healed?

I could show you more scriptures than not that all that were healed in the Bible it was by faith! Yes! we will all get sick! Yes! we will all at some point die! But lets stick to scriptures when defending a doctrine....not on our five senses!

 

[Yeshua1]

Is this a word from 12strings or a word from the Lord? :laugh:

YOu did not go back and read the other post did you? Where have I said that all will be healed?

I could show you more scriptures than not that all that were healed in the Bible it was by faith! Yes! we will all get sick! Yes! we will all at some point die! But lets stick to scriptures when defending a doctrine....not on our five senses!

According the Sovereign Will/Plan/purpose of God!

IF it is the will of the father, than those asking to receive a healing will be gravted it, by He still chooses the methods to emply...

Divine healing/medicine/surgery/death/ or not until death!

 

[DHK]

Go back and read the thread...they were addressed!
Not all are healed today, but why?

Just answer the question. I don't have the time to go back and hunt for posts. And while your at it, here is another question for you to answer:

Is it God's will for all to live a prosperous life? Yes or no.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just answer the question. I don't have the time to go back and hunt for posts. And while your at it, here is another question for you to answer:

Is it God's will for all to live a prosperous life? Yes or no.

He would have a hard time getting this in say Hebrews hall of faith, or else the life of the Apostles of Christ, especially paul!

 

[DHK]

He would have a hard time getting this in say Hebrews hall of faith, or else the life of the Apostles of Christ, especially paul!

I hear they all had good retirement plans too:

[FONT=&quot]Tradition holds that the Apostles died in the following manner: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew suffered martyrdom by being slain with a sword at a distant city of Ethiopia. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark expired at Alexandria, after being cruelly dragged through the streets of that city. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke was hanged upon an olive tree in the classic land of Greece. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John was afterward banished to Patmos. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter was crucified at Rome with his head downward. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James, the Greater, was beheaded at Jerusalem.
James, the Less, was thrown from a lofty pinnacle of the temple, and then beaten to death with a fuller's club. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bartholomew was flayed alive. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Andrew was bound to a cross, whence he preached to his persecutors until he died. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thomas was run through the body with a lance at Coromandel in the East Indies.
Jude was shot to death with arrows. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthais was first stoned and then beheaded. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Barnabas of the Gentiles was stoned to death at Salonica. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul, after various tortures and persecutions, was at length beheaded at Rome by the Emperor Nero.[/FONT]

 

[awaken]

Just answer the question. I don't have the time to go back and hunt for posts. And while your at it, here is another question for you to answer:

Is it God's will for all to live a prosperous life? Yes or no.

Well...I am tired of answering the questions over and over! My answers have not changed!

 

[DHK]

Well...I am tired of answering the questions over and over! My answers have not changed!

You never answered post #37. That post had a lot in it.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1909050&postcount=37
You never gave an answer to this, the central theme of most of this thread:

Please respond to your own statement here where you said:

Having the resources to abundantly meet my needs with enough left over to give to others ...to me is closer to true prosperity"

Is this really true. In light of what I just posted concerning the lives and deaths of the apostles, in light of the lives of those in Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Iraq, Pakistan, and so many other third world nations, do all these people (Christians or not) have their needs met and and enough left over to give to others?

How big is the city that you live in? Have you ever worked at a homeless shelter, or a mission located in the downtown area of a city that caters to the drunks, drug addicts, homeless, etc. Can you empathize with their problems? It is obvious you haven't been out of your own nation.

 

[DHK]

Paul told Timothy to drink wine and not just water, because Timothy was experiencing frequent stomach illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23). Based on this verse, people sometimes claim that Paul couldn't heal Timothy, as if Paul was "losing" his ability to heal people. But clearly Paul was writing to Timothy. Paul was nowhere near Timothy and couldn't have laid hands on Timothy even if he wanted to! Notice that Timothy didn't have an "illness" (singular), but instead he had several illnesses (plural). Since he had "frequent illnesses" (plural), this shows that in some way his stomach illnesses were healed each time. This verse doesn't support the idea that healing was "dying out" in the first century.

Paul's paths crossed many times with Timothy. Timothy was his disciple; the pastor of Ephesus, someone he saw frequently. He wrote that in the first epistle to Timothy. Timothy would come to see him before he would be tried, and would bring to him his books, parchments and cloak. If he could be healed; if it were God's will for him to be healed, Paul could have done it. But he didn't. As for him having more than one sickness that is a moot point. Whether the ailment be one or five, God is able to heal us of all our diseases, isn't he? Or do you believe God is just limited to healing one disease per person? Does he ration out his healings?

Paul could not heal Timothy, nor a number of others. Why?
1. Because it was not God's will, and is not God's will for all to be healed.
2. Because the gift of healing was fading out by this time. This epistle was written ca. 62 A.D.
3. Because it was God's will that Timothy have this affliction (probably dysentery due to unclean water--common in those parts of the world, also which grape juice is a very good remedy.)

 

[DHK]

I thought this was addressed already..

Sometimes people use Galatians 6:11 to demonstrate that Paul had an eye condition which was never healed. However, when Paul referred to "how large a letter" (KJV) or "what large letters" (NIV) in Galatians 6:11, we really can't say for sure what he meant. It's possible that he wrote in large letters for emphasis, such as when we use bold letters for emphasis. It's also possible that his eyes were getting weak with age, so he needed to write in large letters. Another possibility is that he simply had poor handwriting. Or perhaps he was referring to the length of his letter to the Galatians. Galatians 6:11 doesn't prove that Paul had an eye condition which was never healed.

I answered this already. I reject this explanation. I told you that. Paul specifically says that he wrote in LARGE LETTERS. That is what the meaning is; not a long epistle, for it wasn't--it was a shorter one. He wrote in large letters. Period. It was due to his pure eyesight which virtually every commentator will tell you.

Notice that Paul said he had a "bodily ailment" (which is sometimes assumed to be an eye problem) when he first visited Galatia:
Galatians 4:13-15 (AMP): "you know that it was on account of a bodily ailment that [I remained and] preached the Gospel to you the first time. And [yet], although my physical condition was [such] a trial to you, you did not regard it with contempt ... For I bear witness that you would have torn out your own eyes and have given them to me [to replace mine], if that were possible."

You didn't read my post did you. I pointed this out to you already. His bodily ailment that he refers to is his eyesight, the very reason why he writes in large letters.

The NIV uses the word "illness" in this passage, but the Greek word literally means "feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness." (Strong's Greek Dictionary). What was this infirmity of the flesh or this bodily ailment? Acts 14:19-20 tells us that when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra, the crowd stoned Paul and left him for dead. The next day, Paul and Barnabas went to Derbe, which was in the southern part of Galatia (according to Eerdman's Atlas of the Bible):
Acts 14:19-20: "Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe."
This infirmity from the stoning was the reason why Paul preached the Gospel in Galatia for the first time (Galatians 4:13-15). Consider that Paul both preached and practiced healing, and not once did he ever tell anyone to patiently endure their sicknesses, nor did he ever say that he himself was patiently enduring any infirmity. If Paul's eyes were wounded during the stoning, they apparently were healed because he never listed any eye problems among the sufferings which he had received for the sake of the Gospel.

Read carefully. Paul was stoned. He was left for dead. As his apostles were wondering what to do, Paul got up from under that pile of stones, and basically told them--what are you waiting for boys, let's go.
It was a miracle. It was as if God raised him from the dead. He should have been dead. Yet, the disciples, pretty much convinced that he was dead, were shocked when he got up, and apparently perfectly healthy to take a long trek by foot, without ever missing a step. How do you account for all of that, unless it were entirely of the grace of God preserving miraculously Paul's life. The same type of stoning killed Stephen.

Paul's eye condition was not a result of this. 2Cor.12 specifically says that God gave it to him, or allowed Satan to inflict it upon him to keep him humble (lest he be exalted above measure).

Again, the New Testament does not teach that an "Age of Miracles" will come to an end in the first century.

There were three ages of miracles:
1. During the time of Moses--when revelation was being written.
2. During the time of Elijah and Elisha, representative of the prophets--when revelation was being written.
3. During the time of Christ and the Apostles--when revelation was being written.

The age of miracles has ceased. There is no more need of them.
The apostolic age has ceased. The age of miracles has ceased.

 

[awaken]

You never answered post #37. That post had a lot in it.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1909050&postcount=37
You never gave an answer to this, the central theme of most of this thread:

Please respond to your own statement here where you said:

Is this really true. In light of what I just posted concerning the lives and deaths of the apostles, in light of the lives of those in Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Iraq, Pakistan, and so many other third world nations, do all these people (Christians or not) have their needs met and and enough left over to give to others?

How big is the city that you live in? Have you ever worked at a homeless shelter, or a mission located in the downtown area of a city that caters to the drunks, drug addicts, homeless, etc. Can you empathize with their problems? It is obvious you haven't been out of your own nation.

All I am going to say to this is....
Christ gave it all at the cross! Salvation is a gift paid for in full! Just because there are people out there that has not accepted the gift does not mean it was not paid for.

 

[DHK]

All I am going to say to this is....
Christ gave it all at the cross! Salvation is a gift paid for in full! Just because there are people out there that has not accepted the gift does not mean it was not paid for.

What a cruel answer. You are one of the most cruel people I have met. You toss those people in the trash and assume they are not spiritual because they do not prosper. 90% of the world is in that condition and do not have access to the wealth you do. It has nothing to do with "Christ giving it all at the cross." Get right with God! Start living in the real world and get out of your fantasy world!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[awaken]

I answered this already. I reject this explanation. I told you that. Paul specifically says that he wrote in LARGE LETTERS. That is what the meaning is; not a long epistle, for it wasn't--it was a shorter one. He wrote in large letters. Period. It was due to his pure eyesight which virtually every commentator will tell you.

You didn't read my post did you. I pointed this out to you already. His bodily ailment that he refers to is his eyesight, the very reason why he writes in large letters.

Read carefully. Paul was stoned. He was left for dead. As his apostles were wondering what to do, Paul got up from under that pile of stones, and basically told them--what are you waiting for boys, let's go.
It was a miracle. It was as if God raised him from the dead. He should have been dead. Yet, the disciples, pretty much convinced that he was dead, were shocked when he got up, and apparently perfectly healthy to take a long trek by foot, without ever missing a step. How do you account for all of that, unless it were entirely of the grace of God preserving miraculously Paul's life. The same type of stoning killed Stephen.

Paul's eye condition was not a result of this. 2Cor.12 specifically says that God gave it to him, or allowed Satan to inflict it upon him to keep him humble (lest he be exalted above measure).

There were three ages of miracles:
1. During the time of Moses--when revelation was being written.
2. During the time of Elijah and Elisha, representative of the prophets--when revelation was being written.
3. During the time of Christ and the Apostles--when revelation was being written.

The age of miracles has ceased. There is no more need of them.
The apostolic age has ceased. The age of miracles has ceased.

Well...we will disagree on this subject as well!

 

[awaken]

The New Covenant (blood covenant) joined God and man together. The crucifixion of Jesus changed the entire spirtaul authority structure of the universe. Satan may still be around, but his dominion ended at the cross. Sin and death dominated the human race since the garden of Eden. Jesus Christ, as the last Adam, started a new race, the people of the covenant, why are not under Satan's authority. Fear was the power behind the old human race headed up by the first Adam. Covenant faith is the power behind the race of new creatures in Christ (Gal. 2:20, 3:11). The power of Christ's righteousness and eternal life has replaced the power of sin and death for the believer (Rom. 8:2).

 

[awaken]

Once Jesus had completed the requirements of the NC, God the Father had a responsibility to fulfill. The OT prophets revealed what was to come in Ez. 36:26-27. .."I will put my Spirit within you." This promise was made hundreds of yers before the cross. Until the crucifixion of Christ, God's Spirit did not indwell His people. Under the OC, the Bible teaches that the HS was "with" or upon and individual--but never permanently inside anyone. Under the OC the presence of the HS was conditional upon the ordinances. When a person was disobedient, the HS left. In the desert, God dwelled with them in the form of the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. Yet, God said that there would come a time when He would send His Spirit to dwell inside His people, forever. Sin and disobedience may grieve the Holy Spirit, but He will never leave the New Covenant believer (Eph. 4:25-32, Heb. 13:5).

 

[John of Japan]

You have never been to a third world country where most of the nation lives in abject poverty have you? Try going to Ethiopia or Zimbabwe, parts of India, or Pakistan, or North Korea, and preach that message. See how it goes over.

Well said! The prosperity gospel becomes ridiculous when one visits a third world country and sees faithful--but extremely poor Christians there. I remember a faithful Christian family in one country who were delighted with their new appliance--their first ever tiny little refrigerator. Extremely poor--but joyful in the Lord.

 

[awaken]

Some have brought out Job in many threads trying to say that the benefits found in the new covenant in Christ's blood are not available to us. They say "Look what God allowed in Job's life!"

Job is considered the oldest book in Bible. Job's life predates the Abrahamic blood covenant that was the first and only known covenant of its kind in the earth. THere is no evidence that Job and Abraham are even related. THe only way then to be apart of the Abrahamic blood covenant was to be a member of Abraham's family. THe book of Job describes the life of a holy man OUTSIDE of a blood covenant with God! Job had no covenant commitment from God..no covenant promises to put faith in...no covenant benefits..and no covenant union with God on which to depend. Yet, Abraham and NT Christians today possess these things. I believe the one reason God put Job in the Bible was to illustrate this point.

Job is a picture of how God deals with humanity without intervening power of the blood covenant.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Well said! The prosperity gospel becomes ridiculous when one visits a third world country and sees faithful--but extremely poor Christians there. I remember a faithful Christian family in one country who were delighted with their new appliance--their first ever tiny little refrigerator. Extremely poor--but joyful in the Lord.

The reason Christianity won over other religions (besides the fact that the true God is at the center) is that it does offer hope to the down trodden, the poor, etc. I love to hear Dr. Fowler talk about the great reversals pictured in Luke, where Jesus ignores the traditions of the religious and goes after those they despise or ignore.

 

[awaken]

Consider this....

If we commit a sin, is it possible that God might discipline us by preventing us from having love? No, He has already given love to us in our spirit because of the Atonement (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit). It's done! Since He's already given it to us, this means that He wants us to be loving. Therefore, it's always His will for us to be loving, even when we sometimes act unloving.

Is it possible that God might discipline us by preventing us from having joy? No, He has already given joy to us in our spirit because of the Atonement (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit). It's done! Since He's already given it to us, this means that He wants us to be joyful. Therefore, it's always His will for us to be joyful, even when we sometimes don't feel joyful.

Is it possible that God might discipline us by preventing us from having health or causing us to be sick? No, He has already given healing to us because of the Atonement. It's done! Since He's already given it to us, this means that He wants us to be healed and healthy. Therefore, it's always His will for us to be healed and healthy, even when we sometimes get sick or injured. Think about it for a moment.

When we go through periods of being unloving, joyless, impatient, unwise, etc., is it possible that God might use those situations to draw us closer to Him or to teach us something? Yes, but this doesn't mean that it was His will for us to be unloving, joyless, impatient, unwise, and so on.

When we're sick, injured, etc., is it possible that God might use those situations to draw us closer to Him or to teach us something? Yes, but this doesn't mean that it was His will for us to be sick, injured, and so on.

Is it ever God's fault if we are unloving? No, it's just that we're not using the love which He has already provided.

Is it ever God's fault if we don't display some of the fruit of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit? No, it's just that we're not using the fruit and gifts which He has already provided.

Is it ever God's fault if we are sick or injured? No, it's just that we're not using the healing which He has already provided.

The point here is that it's always God's will for people to receive healing! Healing is always available! No-one is ever denied.

This is not easy to comprehend because most Christians seem to be looking at healing from the wrong perspective.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Consider this....

If we commit a sin, is it possible that God might discipline us by preventing us from having love? No, He has already given love to us in our spirit because of the Atonement (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit). It's done! Since He's already given it to us, this means that He wants us to be loving. Therefore, it's always His will for us to be loving, even when we sometimes act unloving.

Is it possible that God might discipline us by preventing us from having joy? No, He has already given joy to us in our spirit because of the Atonement (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit). It's done! Since He's already given it to us, this means that He wants us to be joyful. Therefore, it's always His will for us to be joyful, even when we sometimes don't feel joyful.

Is it possible that God might discipline us by preventing us from having health or causing us to be sick? No, He has already given healing to us because of the Atonement. It's done! Since He's already given it to us, this means that He wants us to be healed and healthy. Therefore, it's always His will for us to be healed and healthy, even when we sometimes get sick or injured. Think about it for a moment.

When we go through periods of being unloving, joyless, impatient, unwise, etc., is it possible that God might use those situations to draw us closer to Him or to teach us something? Yes, but this doesn't mean that it was His will for us to be unloving, joyless, impatient, unwise, and so on.

When we're sick, injured, etc., is it possible that God might use those situations to draw us closer to Him or to teach us something? Yes, but this doesn't mean that it was His will for us to be sick, injured, and so on.

Is it ever God's fault if we are unloving? No, it's just that we're not using the love which He has already provided.

Is it ever God's fault if we don't display some of the fruit of the Spirit or gifts of the Spirit? No, it's just that we're not using the fruit and gifts which He has already provided.

Is it ever God's fault if we are sick or injured? No, it's just that we're not using the healing which He has already provided.

The point here is that it's always God's will for people to receive healing! Healing is always available! No-one is ever denied.

This is not easy to comprehend because most Christians seem to be looking at healing from the wrong perspective.

No, sir, you are dead wrong. God denied Paul healing as you should well know. 2 Corinthians 12:7 (HCSB)
7 especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so I would not exalt myself.
2 Corinthians 12:8-9 (HCSB)
8 Concerning this, I pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away from me.
9 But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may reside in me.

You don't realize that God uses negative situations in our life to bring Him glory. You preach a prosperity gospel that is despicable, imo. I have seen your kind come into a hospital that I worked at and tell sick people it was their fault they were sick, that they could be healed if they had enough faith. I am talking about people dying of cancer. Security had to have them removed before the family beat the devil out of them. That, sir, is insidious.

God chastises every son He receives, and if you have not been corrected by God, then you are a bastard and not a son according to Hebrews. How does God chastise? However He wants. He could send sickness, take away wealth, our joy, etc. You need to grow up and realize that your ways are not God's ways. To hear you tell how a Christian life is supposed to happen, Paul must have been the worst Christian of us all. Listen at what happened to him:
2 Corinthians 11:23-31 (HCSB)
23 Are they servants of Christ? I’m talking like a madman—I’m a better one: with far more labors, many more imprisonments, far worse beatings, near death many times.
24 Five times I received 39 lashes from Jews.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods ⌊by the Romans⌋. Once I was stoned ⌊by my enemies⌋. Three times I was shipwrecked. I have spent a night and a day in the open sea.
26 On frequent journeys, ⌊I faced⌋ dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my own people, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the open country, dangers on the sea, and dangers among false brothers;
27 labor and hardship, many sleepless nights, hunger and thirst, often without food, cold, and lacking clothing.
28 Not to mention other things, there is the daily pressure on me: my care for all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?
30 If boasting is necessary, I will boast about my weaknesses.
31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is praised forever, knows I am not lying.
Paul went hungry, thirsty, and lacked clothing, and he was the best Christian we have ever read about and you and I aren't worthy to wash his feet, yet by your despicable religious, holier than thou attitude, you would make him out of the will of God during these situations.

God takes us through all things, but doesn't always deliver us from them