The breath of God...

[Yeshua1]

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiriation of God, and is profitable for doctring, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteiousness." It does not say take the book of Acts out!

All the scripture is inspired revelation from God to us, but not all of it applies to us today !

I don't slit sheep/lamp throats any more for a sacrifice, do you?

have to rightly divide it, based upon different times/means/ways of God operating with mankind!

 

[awaken]

All the scripture is inspired revelation from God to us, but not all of it applies to us today !

I don't slit sheep/lamp throats any more for a sacrifice, do you?

have to rightly divide it, based upon different times/means/ways of God operating with mankind!

NO, but we are discussing the same dispensation/covenant/church age! Once the Holy Sprit was poured out on the church...He will be with us until Christ returns! The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still needed today...even more than before!

 

[DHK]

NO, but we are discussing the same dispensation/covenant/church age! Once the Holy Sprit was poured out on the church...He will be with us until Christ returns! The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still needed today...even more than before!

(CEV) "The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others."
The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Spirit.
It is the Spirit's gifts or way of helping others to serve him.
It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12:28ff. They ceased at the end of the first century, and I have given you plenty of scripture to back that up.
Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. You seem to think that everything written to the Corinthian church applies to us as well. That isn't the case. In chapters 4 and 9 he defends his apostleship because of the false teachers in the church. Does he need to do that in your church also, because there are those in your church that believe Paul is not a true apostle but possibly even a false teacher? Does this also apply to your church?

 

[awaken]

(CEV) "The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others."
The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not the Holy Spirit.
It is the Spirit's gifts or way of helping others to serve him.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost..It was the Holy Ghost upon Acts 1:8. THat Spirit was manifested through men/wemon on the Day of Pentecost in tongues. It was the Holy Spirit that gave them the utterance! Tongues was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit upon them. Just like 1 Cor. 12:7-10 explains! "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." For one is...and then it goes on to list the manifestations of the Holy Spirit! It is very simple to understand and not contradict other scriptures!

It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12:28ff.

I just proved you wrong above! READ VERSE 7 SEVERAL TIMES...THESE MANIFESTATIONS ARE BROUGHT FORTH BY THE SPIRIT...YOU CAN NOT MANIFEST WHAT YOU DO NOT HAVE! UNBELIEVERS CAN NOT MANIFEST THE HOLY SPIRIT!

They ceased at the end of the first century, and I have given you plenty of scripture to back that up.

No you have not given any scripture to back that up...besides..your theory contradicts other scriptures!

Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. You seem to think that everything written to the Corinthian church applies to us as well. That isn't the case. In chapters 4 and 9 he defends his apostleship because of the false teachers in the church. Does he need to do that in your church also, because there are those in your church that believe Paul is not a true apostle but possibly even a false teacher? Does this also apply to your church?

I believe we can learn from every word that is written! So yes! We need to learn from Paul and all of his discipline to the churches. He was correcting them in almost the whole book of Corinthians! But that still does not prove the gift has ceased.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiriation of God, and is profitable for doctring, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteiousness." It does not say take the book of Acts out!

But all scripture must be read in context, according to time, place, setting, and circumstance. For all your trumpeting of the spiritual gifts, discernment is one that you obviously do not have. Either that, or you're willfully ignoring context. I suspect it is both.

 

[DHK]

The gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost..It was the Holy Ghost upon Acts 1:8. THat Spirit was manifested through men/wemon on the Day of Pentecost in tongues. It was the Holy Spirit that gave them the utterance! Tongues was the manifestation of the Holy Spirit upon them.

In Acts 1:8 Jesus was speaking to the disciples only. He said that they would have power to witness.
The Holy Spirit is a person, not a gift. Jesus called him "The Comforter."
He is not simply a "feeling" a "zap of electricity," but an actual person.
One can lie to the Holy Spirit. See Acts 5:1ff. But one cannot lie to a "manifestation."
The gift of tongues happened exactly three times in the Book of Acts. Tongues are a sign to the Jews. All three times Jews were present--first century Jews. When the Jews disregarded the Jews, and the message for which it signified then judgment came and the sign ceased. It is no more. No one speaks in tongues any more. In your heart you know that. Can you point to anyone that has the Biblical gift of tongues today? Why do missionaries, even Charismatic missionaries, go to language schools if the gift of tongues (languages) was still operative today. The gift has ceased. Missionaries must learn languages. They aren't given miraculously, as they were in Acts chapter one.

Just like 1 Cor. 12:7-10 explains! "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal." For one is...and then it goes on to list the manifestations of the Holy Spirit! It is very simple to understand and not contradict other scriptures!

Manifestation? Here it is so you will understand verse 7:

(CEV) "The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others."

We all have a special way of serving the Lord, and of serving others, but not in the way that is listed in verses 8ff. Those gifts have ceased. Joshua asked the sun to stand still, but the Lord won't do that any more either. There are no Elijah's or Elisha's today, neither Moses. Neither are there any apostles, nor the works that they did. The signs and wonders that they did were particular to them as the signs and wonders that Elijah and Elisha did were particular to them. The first century, the apostolic century, the century in which the Bible was being written has come to an end. And so have the spiritual gifts, as 1Cor.13:8 so specifically said that they would.

I just proved you wrong above! READ VERSE 7 SEVERAL TIMES...THESE MANIFESTATIONS ARE BROUGHT FORTH BY THE SPIRIT...YOU CAN NOT MANIFEST WHAT YOU DO NOT HAVE! UNBELIEVERS CAN NOT MANIFEST THE HOLY SPIRIT!

You mean "these gifts." They were specific to the Corinthian church and are not mentioned in any other epistle. Also the Corinthian church was the most carnal of all the churches. 1Cor.13:8 says that they will cease, and they did.
There is nothing to indicate that those gifts are for today. They all ceased during the apostolic age. They were apostolic gifts, abused by the Corinthian church. If you were honest with yourself and others you would admit that there is no one on this earth today that has and is practicing:
1. The Biblical gift of tongues/languages.
2. The Biblical gift of healing.
3. The Biblical gift of miracles.
4. Or the Biblical office of apostles or prophets.

They all are not operative today.
There is no one that can heal in the same manner that Peter did in Acts 5:16, for example.

No you have not given any scripture to back that up...besides..your theory contradicts other scriptures!

I do give Scripture, not theories. Your "philosophy" you have built not on the Bible, but entirely on your emotional experiences. One day you had an experience that you never had before. Now you have built a so-called theology upon it. Your experience has become your foundation.

I believe we can learn from every word that is written! So yes! We need to learn from Paul and all of his discipline to the churches. He was correcting them in almost the whole book of Corinthians! But that still does not prove the gift has ceased.

In 1Cor.13:8ff he tells us they have ceased and why.
In other passages (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4; 1Cor.14:21, etc.), there is ample proof that the gifts have ceased.
Today the Holy Spirit works through His Word. See 1Peter 1:23

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I heard this once: Charismatics are always seeking an experience. When they have an experience, they put their faith in that experience, and then they go looking for scripture to back up that experience.

There's something inherently wrong in this approach.

 

[Yeshua1]

NO, but we are discussing the same dispensation/covenant/church age! Once the Holy Sprit was poured out on the church...He will be with us until Christ returns! The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still needed today...even more than before!

The gifts of the Spirit were to maily confirm the message of the Apsotles thatjesus was the messiah/Lord, and to grant guidance to the churches thru apostoloc/prophetic minitries UNTIL the scriptures came in their fulness and canon was closed!

jesus has been confirmed, we have the entire bible, so no more need for them now!

At BEST, you could claim that God MIGHT still do something like that in areas totally closed off and ignorant of jesus and now getting evangelized, but that would a special and isolated case, and NOT the norm here in the USA!

 

[Yeshua1]

I heard this once: Charismatics are always seeking an experience. When they have an experience, they put their faith in that experience, and then they go looking for scripture to back up that experience.

There's something inherently wrong in this approach.

They also have an open canon, omgoing 'revelation" thru modern Apostles/prophets, so anything goes!

 

[awaken]

But all scripture must be read in context, according to time, place, setting, and circumstance. For all your trumpeting of the spiritual gifts, discernment is one that you obviously do not have. Either that, or you're willfully ignoring context. I suspect it is both.

IT is disernment of spirits! Maybe you need to do a little research on WHAT the gifts are all about!

What you guys are missing is that we are still the church!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

IT is disernment of spirits! Maybe you need to do a little research on WHAT the gifts are all about!

What you guys are missing is that we are still the church!

Hmmmm.....I believe to obtain a doctorate in church history and theology would involve a little research.

 

[awaken]

In Acts 1:8 Jesus was speaking to the disciples only. He said that they would have power to witness.
The Holy Spirit is a person, not a gift. Jesus called him "The Comforter."
He is not simply a "feeling" a "zap of electricity," but an actual person.
One can lie to the Holy Spirit. See Acts 5:1ff. But one cannot lie to a "manifestation."
The gift of tongues happened exactly three times in the Book of Acts. Tongues are a sign to the Jews. All three times Jews were present--first century Jews. When the Jews disregarded the Jews, and the message for which it signified then judgment came and the sign ceased. It is no more. No one speaks in tongues any more. In your heart you know that. Can you point to anyone that has the Biblical gift of tongues today? Why do missionaries, even Charismatic missionaries, go to language schools if the gift of tongues (languages) was still operative today. The gift has ceased. Missionaries must learn languages. They aren't given miraculously, as they were in Acts chapter one.

Manifestation? Here it is so you will understand verse 7:

(CEV) "The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others."

We all have a special way of serving the Lord, and of serving others, but not in the way that is listed in verses 8ff. Those gifts have ceased. Joshua asked the sun to stand still, but the Lord won't do that any more either. There are no Elijah's or Elisha's today, neither Moses. Neither are there any apostles, nor the works that they did. The signs and wonders that they did were particular to them as the signs and wonders that Elijah and Elisha did were particular to them. The first century, the apostolic century, the century in which the Bible was being written has come to an end. And so have the spiritual gifts, as 1Cor.13:8 so specifically said that they would.

You mean "these gifts." They were specific to the Corinthian church and are not mentioned in any other epistle. Also the Corinthian church was the most carnal of all the churches. 1Cor.13:8 says that they will cease, and they did.
There is nothing to indicate that those gifts are for today. They all ceased during the apostolic age. They were apostolic gifts, abused by the Corinthian church. If you were honest with yourself and others you would admit that there is no one on this earth today that has and is practicing:
1. The Biblical gift of tongues/languages.
2. The Biblical gift of healing.
3. The Biblical gift of miracles.
4. Or the Biblical office of apostles or prophets.

They all are not operative today.
There is no one that can heal in the same manner that Peter did in Acts 5:16, for example.

I do give Scripture, not theories. Your "philosophy" you have built not on the Bible, but entirely on your emotional experiences. One day you had an experience that you never had before. Now you have built a so-called theology upon it. Your experience has become your foundation.

In 1Cor.13:8ff he tells us they have ceased and why.
In other passages (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4; 1Cor.14:21, etc.), there is ample proof that the gifts have ceased.
Today the Holy Spirit works through His Word. See 1Peter 1:23

I am through discussing tongues with you....Go back to previous threads where we have discussed it! My answers are the same!

 

[awaken]

I heard this once: Charismatics are always seeking an experience. When they have an experience, they put their faith in that experience, and then they go looking for scripture to back up that experience.

There's something inherently wrong in this approach.

ONe person can not speak for all! I did not seek any experience! My approach to the gifts were to disprove them! THe same way you and others are doing now! But during my search to prove them wrong...the truth was revealed! I repented of my disbelief and embraced His truth not mans!

 

[awaken]

Hmmmm.....I believe to obtain a doctorate in church history and theology would involve a little research.

Are you saying that church history trumps God's Word?:tongue3:

 

[awaken]

The gifts of the Spirit were to maily confirm the message of the Apsotles thatjesus was the messiah/Lord, and to grant guidance to the churches thru apostoloc/prophetic minitries UNTIL the scriptures came in their fulness and canon was closed!

jesus has been confirmed, we have the entire bible, so no more need for them now!

At BEST, you could claim that God MIGHT still do something like that in areas totally closed off and ignorant of jesus and now getting evangelized, but that would a special and isolated case, and NOT the norm here in the USA!

I claim the whole word of God! Not just parts I have never experienced! God's purpose was to empower the church to carry out the great commission! You can stick to your unbelief in the manifestations of the HOly Spirit...as long as you chose that..He will not show up!

 

[DHK]

What is truly sad is that both awaken and evangelist-7 think that their beliefs and experiences trump 1900 years of orthodox Christianity. The great revivals held by D.L. Moody, The Welsh revivals, the modern missionary movement advanced by William Carey, the push into Burma by Adoniram Judson, the unusual prayer ministry of John Hyde (known as praying Hyde) and the thousands that he won to the Lord in India, the great pastoral work of Charles H. Spurgeon, the evangelism of John Wesley, the Godly life of John Knox of whom Queen Mary was terrified, the martyred lives of Jim Elliot, Nate Saint, et. al., who gave their lives for Christ in Ecuador that others might win those unreached tribes for Christ.

History? It seems as if they no nothing of history!
Their history started with the heretical "Kansas City Prophets" in 1905, when the modern tongues movement was born. It was unknown before that time except in paganism and cults. It was never a Biblical movement.
So they even admit that for 1900 years the church did not have the power of the Holy Spirit. This they willingly admit, to their own shame.

They have it; but for 1900 years the Christian church did not have the power of the Holy Spirit, so they say. Unbelievable!!

 

[awaken]

I will repeat some of my other post in response to DHK...
It amazes me the more I read others posting about church history...like that is God's word on the Bible!

Churches have failed in doing what God intended for them to do on the most part! We have as much sin in the churches as we have outside the church! THe churches as a whole have left their first love and denied the power of the HOly Spirit.

If we learn anything from the church history..it is how they have failed God!
God is calling us back to His truth...not mans theology! He wants us to worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Stick to your history books...I am seeking truth in His Word!
What He has re-taught me over the last 6 years...
what I have stepped out in faith and walked in myself....
What I have experienced first hand....NOBODIES UNBELIEF OR ARGUMENTS AGAINST HIS WORD will change it!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Are you saying that church history trumps God's Word?:tongue3:

As I wrote in another thread, church history begins in the Bible, especially the NT. To despise wisdom and learning is a grievous and foolish mistake.

 

[DHK]

I will repeat some of my other post in response to DHK...
It amazes me the more I read others posting about church history...like that is God's word on the Bible!

Churches have failed in doing what God intended for them to do on the most part! We have as much sin in the churches as we have outside the church! THe churches as a whole have left their first love and denied the power of the HOly Spirit.

If we learn anything from the church history..it is how they have failed God!
God is calling us back to His truth...not mans theology! He wants us to worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Stick to your history books...I am seeking truth in His Word!
What He has re-taught me over the last 6 years...
what I have stepped out in faith and walked in myself....
What I have experienced first hand....NOBODIES UNBELIEF OR ARGUMENTS AGAINST HIS WORD will change it!

Here are some of my "friends" whom I learn from:
Matthew Poole, a Reformed nonconformist minister who lived in the 1600's and wrote a very good commentary.
Adam Clarke, a Wesleyan minister of the 18th century who also wrote an excellent commentary.
Albert Barnes, a 19th century Presbyterian commentator and scholar.
Charles Spurgeon, also called the "prince of preachers," also from the 19th century. I have many of his sermons, and much of his work is on-line.
In fact, I have a library of 2,000 or more books and hundreds more on my computer. They range from the early church fathers to missionaries of different eras that have gone out into virtually all parts of this earth.

I learn from what the Holy Spirit has taught them.
But since you despise these men and their works, you should never use Strong's concordance or look up any definitions in his concordance. After all, it is a man's work. You can do that all by yourself, led of the Holy Spirit, right? Forget all those computer programs, do everything the old fashioned way. Just the Bible, you and the Holy Spirit. No helps, concordance, commentaries, computer programs, absolutely nothing. In fact you shouldn't even be using a translation should you? That also is a "help." You should only be reading out of the Greek and Hebrew. Or else the Holy Spirit can't help you. For you are relying on the work of a translator, a man, and not of God, right? If you want the Holy Spirit to teach you and only the Holy Spirit, you must do away with everything touched by human hands--just the Bible in its original languages and you in isolation. This is the conclusion of your logic.

But that is not what you have been doing. You have been relying on historical works for years and have been using them, including the KJV, which was translated in 1611!!!

 

[awaken]

As I wrote in another thread, church history begins in the Bible, especially the NT. To despise wisdom and learning is a grievous and foolish mistake.

I agree!
I agree with Church history in the Bible...it is you that refuses to continue the pattern set out by the Bible itself!