The breath of God...

[awaken]

At first I thought you were speaking directly to him, and you still might have been. But I re-read your post and you may have been using an "impersonal you." I can't tell. Maybe you can clarify that.


If Thomas is a Christian....
First he must be saved...

Thomas was in the upper room...where they prayed and was in one accord! If he was not a believer...He would not have been there. They all received the promise that they were told to wait for! Once the Holy Spirit was poured out on that Day...we do not have to wait for it! We just have to ask our Father!

 

[DHK]

Thomas was in the upper room...where they prayed and was in one accord! If he was not a believer...He would not have been there. They all received the promise that they were told to wait for! Once the Holy Spirit was poured out on that Day...we do not have to wait for it! We just have to ask our Father!

Nevermind. I think we are just speaking past each other now.
It doesn't matter.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I have never made a claim of anyone being second class!

Did I say you had?

I'm saying this is where this false doctrine leads, that many who hold it do have this attitude.

 

[awaken]

Did I say you had?

I'm saying this is where this false doctrine leads, that many who hold it do have this attitude.

Just letting you know that I do not claim it! I did not feel like a second class person before I experienced it and nobody made me feel that way!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I'll say this: I was never more convinced of the reality of evil and Satan than in one particular Charismatic meeting I once attended. That's been many years ago, and I witnessed several lives ruined by that particular church. I have kept track of these people, and they still bear the scars of that experience.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Just letting you know that I do not claim it! I did not feel like a second class person before I experienced it and nobody made me feel that way!

Lucky you.

 

[awaken]

I'll say this: I was never more convinced of the reality of evil and Satan than in one particular Charismatic meeting I once attended. That's been many years ago, and I witnessed several lives ruined by that particular church. I have kept track of these people, and they still bear the scars of that experience.

Well, I am sorry to hear that! But we can not prove the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not real just because there is false out there.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Well, I am sorry to hear that! But we can not prove the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not real just because there is false out there.

We are not talking about the manifestation of the HS. We are talking about a false doctrine of the baptism of the HS being the basis for many more false and dangerous doctrines and practices.

 

[awaken]

We are not talking about the manifestation of the HS. We are talking about a false doctrine of the baptism of the HS being the basis for many more false and dangerous doctrines and practices.

Acts 1:8 tells us that it is the power! Acts 2 shows the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. How can you separate the two?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thomas was in the upper room...where they prayed and was in one accord! If he was not a believer...He would not have been there. They all received the promise that they were told to wait for! Once the Holy Spirit was poured out on that Day...we do not have to wait for it! We just have to ask our Father!

Uhh...the "Thomas" he was talking about was me.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Acts 1:8 tells us that it is the power! Acts 2 shows the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. How can you separate the two?

Any time any true believer uses a true spiritual gift, it is a manifestation of the HS.

I must go to bed now. Arguing with Charismatics, and Catholics and Calvinists, is tiring.

Hey, the three "C's".

 

[awaken]

Any time any true believer uses a true spiritual gift, it is a manifestation of the HS.

True...unbelievers can not manifest what they do not have!

 

[Revmitchell]

You did not answer the question...

There was nothing to answer

 

[awaken]

There was nothing to answer

The question was....
When do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells believers?

But that is ok...I know you really do not read my post anyway...

 

[DHK]

Well, I am sorry to hear that! But we can not prove the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not real just because there is false out there.

The "manifestation" always "the manifestation!," and you can't even define it or you wouldn't keep using it that way.

Here it is again defined in another translation:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

The manifestation of the Spirit is simply the special ability that each of has of serving others. That is all it is. No one on this board would disagree with that except you who attaches some esoteric existential meaning to this word.

First the "Manifestation of the Spirit" has nothing to do with "the indwelling" of the Spirit which comes once and only once in a person's lifetime, and that is when they are saved. That is what happened to those 3,000 believers, who, BTW, never spoke in tongues. The 120 did, but not the 3,000.

We all have different ways of serving the Lord, but not in the same way as they did in the first century. Those ways are past. God works in different ways at different times in history. He gave some signs to the Apostles that he doesn't give now. He gave some signs for the Jews, some because revelation was still being written, some to authenticate the apostles, and their message. These were called "sign gifts." They, especially, have ceased.

There are two interpretations among Baptists about the gifts.
Some divide the spiritual gifts into two groups.
Many believe that just the sign gifts have cease: those that would fall into the categories I have mentioned to you: miraculous, revelatory, apostolic, etc.
And the other more general still exist: the gifts of: helps, faith, administration, etc.

I believe that all the gifts, being somehow supernatural in nature and therefore different than today have ceased, but I would not strongly disagree with the person that takes the first position that only the "sign gifts" have ceased.
Either way they are not for today as 2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4 more than adequately point out along with 1Cor.14:21 and 1Cor.13:8ff.

That does not mean that God doesn't enable believer to serve him with special gifts. I have seen men, who previously were not able to speak in front of any people (fear of public speaking), after being saved and called of God into the ministry become mighty preachers for the Lord. What enabled them to preach in front of hundreds of people, whereas a few years before that time they could not speak in front of a dozen? Only the Holy Spirit can do such a work of grace!
"God gives gifts unto men," but not the same gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12.

Indwelling is far different than manifestation.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The "manifestation" always "the manifestation!," and you can't even define it or you wouldn't keep using it that way.

Here it is again defined in another translation:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

The manifestation of the Spirit is simply the special ability that each of has of serving others. That is all it is. No one on this board would disagree with that except you who attaches some esoteric existential meaning to this word.

First the "Manifestation of the Spirit" has nothing to do with "the indwelling" of the Spirit which comes once and only once in a person's lifetime, and that is when they are saved. That is what happened to those 3,000 believers, who, BTW, never spoke in tongues. The 120 did, but not the 3,000.

We all have different ways of serving the Lord, but not in the same way as they did in the first century. Those ways are past. God works in different ways at different times in history. He gave some signs to the Apostles that he doesn't give now. He gave some signs for the Jews, some because revelation was still being written, some to authenticate the apostles, and their message. These were called "sign gifts." They, especially, have ceased.

There are two interpretations among Baptists about the gifts.
Some divide the spiritual gifts into two groups.
Many believe that just the sign gifts have cease: those that would fall into the categories I have mentioned to you: miraculous, revelatory, apostolic, etc.
And the other more general still exist: the gifts of: helps, faith, administration, etc.

I believe that all the gifts, being somehow supernatural in nature and therefore different than today have ceased, but I would not strongly disagree with the person that takes the first position that only the "sign gifts" have ceased.
Either way they are not for today as 2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4 more than adequately point out along with 1Cor.14:21 and 1Cor.13:8ff.

That does not mean that God doesn't enable believer to serve him with special gifts. I have seen men, who previously were not able to speak in front of any people (fear of public speaking), after being saved and called of God into the ministry become mighty preachers for the Lord. What enabled them to preach in front of hundreds of people, whereas a few years before that time they could not speak in front of a dozen? Only the Holy Spirit can do such a work of grace!
"God gives gifts unto men," but not the same gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12.

Indwelling is far different than manifestation.

In an otherwise excellent post, I highlighted an especially significant part which pertains to our most recent discussions. This is a very important point!

 

[Yeshua1]

The "manifestation" always "the manifestation!," and you can't even define it or you wouldn't keep using it that way.

Here it is again defined in another translation:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

The manifestation of the Spirit is simply the special ability that each of has of serving others. That is all it is. No one on this board would disagree with that except you who attaches some esoteric existential meaning to this word.

First the "Manifestation of the Spirit" has nothing to do with "the indwelling" of the Spirit which comes once and only once in a person's lifetime, and that is when they are saved. That is what happened to those 3,000 believers, who, BTW, never spoke in tongues. The 120 did, but not the 3,000.

We all have different ways of serving the Lord, but not in the same way as they did in the first century. Those ways are past. God works in different ways at different times in history. He gave some signs to the Apostles that he doesn't give now. He gave some signs for the Jews, some because revelation was still being written, some to authenticate the apostles, and their message. These were called "sign gifts." They, especially, have ceased.

There are two interpretations among Baptists about the gifts.
Some divide the spiritual gifts into two groups.
Many believe that just the sign gifts have cease: those that would fall into the categories I have mentioned to you: miraculous, revelatory, apostolic, etc.
And the other more general still exist: the gifts of: helps, faith, administration, etc.

I believe that all the gifts, being somehow supernatural in nature and therefore different than today have ceased, but I would not strongly disagree with the person that takes the first position that only the "sign gifts" have ceased.
Either way they are not for today as 2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4 more than adequately point out along with 1Cor.14:21 and 1Cor.13:8ff.

That does not mean that God doesn't enable believer to serve him with special gifts. I have seen men, who previously were not able to speak in front of any people (fear of public speaking), after being saved and called of God into the ministry become mighty preachers for the Lord. What enabled them to preach in front of hundreds of people, whereas a few years before that time they could not speak in front of a dozen? Only the Holy Spirit can do such a work of grace!
"God gives gifts unto men," but not the same gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12.

Indwelling is far different than manifestation.

believe that a real important fact that most chasamatics miss, and I know that, as I missed it too while in AoG church, is that Acts was a transistion period book, Luke recorded down what actually happened, but much of that was to confirm OT prophecy, and is NOT normitive for today!

I also think that even if one holds to Cessiation of all Gifts, that they also would agree that God is still free to heal, give signs/wonders/dram etc, but its as HE wills, and NOT the norm as it was in Acts!

 

[awaken]

The "manifestation" always "the manifestation!," and you can't even define it or you wouldn't keep using it that way.

Here it is again defined in another translation:

(CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

The manifestation of the Spirit is simply the special ability that each of has of serving others. That is all it is. No one on this board would disagree with that except you who attaches some esoteric existential meaning to this word.

Lets take the dictionary definition...since you like to use it to prove other points.
Manifest- to reveal or become evident
Manifestation- evidence or proof of something; the embodiment of a spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the gift! He is manifested through the believer as listed in 1 Cor. 12:8-10.

First the "Manifestation of the Spirit" has nothing to do with "the indwelling" of the Spirit which comes once and only once in a person's lifetime, and that is when they are saved.

Well at least here you half way admitted to it being to separate workings of the Holy Spirit!

That is what happened to those 3,000 believers, who, BTW, never spoke in tongues. The 120 did, but not the 3,000.

As far as the 3,000...you have no proof they NEVER spoke in tongues!
It does say they continued in doctrine...prayers(does not say what kind of prayer)!

The manifestation is very simple in 1 Cor. 12 because it defines itself!

We all have different ways of serving the Lord, but not in the same way as they did in the first century. Those ways are past. God works in different ways at different times in history. He gave some signs to the Apostles that he doesn't give now. He gave some signs for the Jews, some because revelation was still being written, some to authenticate the apostles, and their message. These were called "sign gifts." They, especially, have ceased.

Again, you have NO scriptures to back this up! They were not just given to the apostles, they were given to the church! To profit ALL!

There are two interpretations among Baptists about the gifts.
Some divide the spiritual gifts into two groups.
Many believe that just the sign gifts have cease: those that would fall into the categories I have mentioned to you: miraculous, revelatory, apostolic, etc.
And the other more general still exist: the gifts of: helps, faith, administration, etc.

I believe that all the gifts, being somehow supernatural in nature and therefore different than today have ceased, but I would not strongly disagree with the person that takes the first position that only the "sign gifts" have ceased.
Either way they are not for today as 2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4 more than adequately point out along with 1Cor.14:21 and 1Cor.13:8ff.

None of those scriptures say they are not for today!
Were they for a sign? Yes!
Were they to bear witness , both with sings and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his will? Yes!
Just for apostles? NO!
Tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discernment of spirits, Faith, prophecy were all manifested through others than the apostles. Miracles were done by others than the apostles, Was Philip an apostle? He performed miracles! Mark 16 tells us that those that believe will lay hands on the sick and they will recover!

I loved how you leave so many verses out of your list..like 1 Cor. 1:6-8 which tells us that we are to come behind in no gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ! Don't sound like they are going to end in the first Century, unless Christ came back during that time!

That does not mean that God doesn't enable believer to serve him with special gifts. I have seen men, who previously were not able to speak in front of any people (fear of public speaking), after being saved and called of God into the ministry become mighty preachers for the Lord. What enabled them to preach in front of hundreds of people, whereas a few years before that time they could not speak in front of a dozen? Only the Holy Spirit can do such a work of grace!
"God gives gifts unto men," but not the same gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12.

Indwelling is far different than manifestation.

But we can not exclude the gifts in 1 Cor. 12 like you want to do! THey are included in the manifestation of the HOly Spirit!

You seem to be saying that indwelling and manifestation is two separate workings of the HOly Spirit...hmmm!

 

[awaken]

believe that a real important fact that most chasamatics miss, and I know that, as I missed it too while in AoG church, is that Acts was a transistion period book, Luke recorded down what actually happened, but much of that was to confirm OT prophecy, and is NOT normitive for today!

I also think that even if one holds to Cessiation of all Gifts, that they also would agree that God is still free to heal, give signs/wonders/dram etc, but its as HE wills, and NOT the norm as it was in Acts!

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiriation of God, and is profitable for doctring, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteiousness." It does not say take the book of Acts out!

 

[awaken]

In an otherwise excellent post, I highlighted an especially significant part which pertains to our most recent discussions. This is a very important point!

First the "Manifestation of the Spirit" has nothing to do with "the indwelling" of the Spirit which comes once and only once in a person's lifetime, and that is when they are saved. That is what happened to those 3,000 believers, who, BTW, never spoke in tongues. The 120 did, but not the 3,000.

THis verse you highlighted...I agree that it only happens once concerning the indwelling! I also agree that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is different...it comes with the Baptism just like the day of Pentecost, ACts 10, Acts 19 etc.