Whatever, see - I gave my word I would respond and now can with out stress from my work computer as it is now functioning enough to write this out :type:
When we talk about the effectual call we are speaking of the call producing a certain result (belief). Romans 8:30 says "those whom he called he also justified" - no exceptions. If there is only one call which can be believed or rejected then not all who are called are also justified. For another example see Acts 2:38-39 which says "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." The gospel invitation is for everyone, but this call is only for those who will believe.
I have addressed the underlined part in the OP but if you wish more clarification just address it. That which I have embolded is my same stance as well but with a differing twist to that of the Calvinist paradigm but is addressed in the OP.
Consider: "IF" there is no regeneration BEFORE salvation but after, would you then conceed a plausable pardign where God KNEW everyone who WILL believe His Calling to salvation. [hypothetical]
First, He doesn't "MAKE" anyone believe in the sense of "force", so you could probably say that a different way. Maybe you didn't mean "force", I don't know.
I did not mean it specifically but it was implied. Calvinst Paradigm: Man will not seek after God being dead in his trespasses and sins. God must thereby make man alive (regenerate) unto Christ that at some point future will believe and be IN Christ. God changes man into a new man, so the new man MUST now seek after God - yet he has no choice NOT to seek or reject God. So in the strictest sence of the word Man is 'MADE' or forced to be saved but man knows no better as he is simply following his new nature to its pre-designed end. If we are designed to do a thing without the actual ability to NOT do that thing then we are 'made' to obey. Now I conceed I do not fully know or understand the mind of God but I see scripture bear out both views and somehow they are compatable IN GODs mind alone.
I do have a question though:
IF we stopped proclaiming the gospel, would the elect still become saved SINCE their salvation isn't dependent upon their faith or belief of/in the Gospel but upon God giving them regeneration, Faith, and repentence first and then we see mans belief is a response to the gifts given and then the gift of salvation is imparted~?
If I'm wrong concerning the dynamics of the question - please explain it to me.
Second, He did it this way so that no one could boast (Eph. 2:9). Salvation is not primarily about getting us out of Hell. That is a most fortunate result of salvation, but salvation is primarily about declaring the glory of God.
I believe this to, without reservation but as to how there is no boasting in my veiw since I believe must believe first - I will us what I wrote earlier:
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
...
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling [invitation], brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen [To choose, select, choose for oneself] the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
The context is actaully about those who have believed, via His calling. We see this in its context shows WHY (their believing) there is no boasting or glorying before God as there is nothing from MANS perspective to give glory to himself. It is what the world would consider foolishness that there is no disquishable greatness of these men (believers) that would earn such a great prize or gift. This is why in verse 27 it states God has chosen - not in relation the elect believers but in relation to God not using mans system to determine worth. Notice also that Paul speaks of those "things", WE are not 'things' so these verses are not refering to man but that system OF man that determins ones worthiness of reward or gift. We see in verse 29 that Paul bring it back to people and that since what we have in Christ is not based on any system proving ourselves worthy If we can be worthy of this then we would also have the potential to loose anything by which we may glory of ourselves. Verse 30 states "We are in Christ, due to Him..." Keep it in context, as in God is the one who called us based on nothing we have earned, or are. But before we leave off here please go up a few verses from 27 once more:
See, here is the premise of the suceeding verses of we spoke regarding the call. The call was foolishness to the world but salvation to them "THAT BELEIVED". They are elect because they believed, but God KNEW who they would be, for He foreknew THAT THEY WERE and decreed them to be saved, thus it is the same calling to all but only those who WILL and ordained to that which God Knew will believe and are saved. Thus is the truest measure of mans willful rebellion and the exact purpose and nature of Gods just punishment upon man who would not believe
And as you state just below, I agree and Rom 3:26 falls completely into what I described above
Rom. 3:26 says "It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." The spotlight must be on Him and what salvation teaches us about Him. Nothing is worth more than this knowledge of Him, not even rescue from Hell.
You aslo stated:
You ought to spend some time in John 17 looking at Jesus' prayer on the eve of His death. He starts this way: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." How different is that than the way we normally think about salvation? How offensive would it be (assuming you are the preacher) if you stood up next Sunday in church and prayed something like "Father, glorify me in this sermon that I am about to preach"? If you heard someone pray like that what would you think?
Then notice who it is to whom He gives eternal life, and notice what that eternal life is. Then read on and you'll come across sentences like "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." Why does He want to save us? Not ultimately so that we won't burn, but ultimately so that He can show us His glory. Then notice running through the whole prayer a note of exclusivity - He is not praying for the world, but only for those who have been given to Him and those who will believe later, those whom the world hates. To me this is some of the strongest evidence for effectual calling (and limited atonement) in the whole Bible.
What makes you assume I have any problem with any of this. I hold to it all, being that Jesus was praying for them He KNEW WOULD believe - ALL believers. This is what I refer to as God ForeKnowing those who WILL believe and ordained THEM to eternal life. Thus His election is about a people unto Himself FROM OUT OF the other group.
That which I embolded on your statement I will answer to:
You did not show in that section anything that resembled an effectual calling or limited attonement. Effectual Calling was not ascribed in anything there unless you bring in the presuppositional idea. Yes it speaks of believers but not to the idea of effectual calling wherewith God regenerates man, place in him the gifts of faith repentence and salvation as the culminatin of the this call but that they ARE/WILL be believers at some point. Do you see the distinction made as to who they will be and are verses what the effectual call does. This is why I state it is a pre-supposed idea coming along side these verses. As for limited atonement there in nothing there that speaks of this and again is a presuppositional idea brought along side the text.
I will stop here with words from Allan. (oh hey! Thats me :laugh: )I would have been a Calvinist, if it were not for all those Arminian verses.
And I would be an Arminian, if it were not for all those Calvinist verses.
So I will be content to remain in Christ as that is all I'm required to do.
And that my friend is more than I can handle in this life time.
