The CALL, Is there One Call to All or not

[Jarthur001]

I will stop here with words from Allan. (oh hey! Thats me :laugh: )I would have been a Calvinist, if it were not for all those Arminian verses.
And I would be an Arminian, if it were not for all those Calvinist verses.
So I will be content to remain in Christ as that is all I'm required to do.
And that my friend is more than I can handle in this life time.

OK...now I understand how it works. In order to be Arminian, once you see a verse that seems to point to this view point....one must forget about the rest of the Bible. Now I see how one can be Arminian.

just kidding with ya Allan

 

[Allan]

Have fun with it -
It bothers me not
I'm not an Arminian
But a mean little snot!

:laugh: :1_grouphug: :laugh:

 

[Allan]

2 Peter 1:2-3 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue

It is amazing how one little word can change the meaning concerning implied intent. This is translated in many differing forms from "...called us "to", "by" through" and even "in" depending on the translation you use. For me it matters little as it is still shows that same principle I believe that God Calls all men to repentence but only some will/have believed. However, God know who Will believe and when the Holy Spirit convicts the "...WORLD of Sin..." (note: the non-called are in this catagory - Dead hearing God) and it holds to what I consider the proper VIEW of truth and that being:

1 Tim 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

[Especially - Most especially or more specifically] The Same Call that went out to all with the same purpose however it will not have the effect since that which makes it effective in the life of ANY person is BELIEF.

Here is an interesting peice I found concerning the verse you posted James, from Adam Clark:

That hath called us to glory and virtue—To virtue or courage as the means; and glory—the kingdom of heaven, as the end. This is the way in which these words are commonly understood, and this sense is plain enough, but the construction is harsh. Others have translated δια δοξης και αρετης, by his glorious benignity, a Hebraism for δια της ενδοξου αρετης· and read the whole verse thus: God by his own power hath bestowed on us every thing necessary for a happy life and godliness, having called us to the knowledge of himself, by his own infinite goodness. It is certain that the word αρετη, which we translate virtue or courage, is used, 1 Peter 2:9, to express the perfection of the Divine nature: That ye may show forth τας αρετας, the virtues or Perfections, of him who hath called you from darkness into his marvellous light.

But there is a various reading here which is of considerable importance, and which, from the authorities by which it is supported, appears to be genuine: Του καλεσαντος ἡμας ιδια δοξῃ και αρετῃ, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own glory and power, or by his own glorious power. This is the reading of AC, several others; and, in effect, of the Coptic, Armenian, Syriac, Ethiopic, Vulgate, Cyril, Cassiodorus, etc.

But in effect on that one little word ( I bolded above) depends on which original artical you hold to. All I think hold to the same construch but for a view many will willing be selective.

 

[Brother Bob]

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
This is hearing the gospel of salvation. Notice all they that HEAR shall live. Do all men that you preach to, go to heaven? Now notice the small word in the next verse.."also". This changes the subject from salvation to judgment/resurrection. At the resurrection ALL men will come forth.

You ever hear of hearing spiritually James?

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Understand?

I sure do James, just didn't know you believed that they must hear first, thanks.

2 Peter 1:2-3 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue​

One thing you have admitted on here James is that you were dead also and now you quote a scripture where you heared the "call" of the Lord. Amen,

 

[jne1611]

You ever hear of hearing spiritually James?


I sure do James, just didn't know you believed that they must hear first, thanks.


One thing you have admitted on here James is that you were dead also and now you quote a scripture where you heared the "call" of the Lord. Amen,

I could not agree with you more Bob on the spiritual ear. And hearing spiritually, the only difference between us on this issue I think, is, that I believe that that spiritual ear only hears by God's power, I.E. The spirit is dead when God calls & He by the power of the Spirit of God gives that spirit life. You see a key difference between our spirit & the Spirit of God. I have not seen many make this distinction, but I agree that our inner man, so to speak, is what hears. I just do not believe our inner man hears God until the Spirit of God quickens the inner man.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

You ever hear of hearing spiritually James?

Of course Bob. This is what we have been talking about all along. When the Bible says unsaved are dead, it means they are spiritually dead. When the Bible says the unsaved are blind, it means they are spiritually blind to the truth. When the Bible says the unsaved man can not hear, it means they cannot understand the meaning and or do not understand they have a need.

I sure do James, just didn't know you believed that they must hear first, thanks.

I have always said this. Hear, not just with the ears, but hear spiritually. Look back over this thread and many other threads and see what I have said. Remember the.."how shall they hear without a preacher?" Was this not me that held this all along?

One thing you have admitted on here James is that you were dead also and now you quote a scripture where you heared the "call" of the Lord. Amen.

Admitted? When have I said anything but this?? I was not born saved. You were not born saved. No one is. All must believe. I'm not sure why you would say this.



In Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course Bob. This is what we have been talking about all along. When the Bible says unsaved are dead, it means they are spiritually dead. When the Bible says the unsaved are blind, it means they are spiritually blind to the truth. When the Bible says the unsaved man can not hear, it means they cannot understand the meaning and or do not understand they have a need.

Wonder why it say to annoint thy eyes with eye salve that thou mayest see.

I have always said this. Hear, not just with the ears, but hear spiritually. Look back over this thread and many other threads and see what I have said. Remember the.."how shall they hear without a preacher?" Was this not me that held this all along?

No Sir; You have always said the dead can't do anything.

Admitted? When have I said anything but this?? I was not born saved. You were not born saved. No one is. All must believe. I'm not sure why you would say this.



In Christ...James

I simply said it because you said the dead can't do anything and that included you also and jne;

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

Wonder why it say to annoint thy eyes with eye salve that thou mayest see.

The context tells us Bob

No Sir; You have always said the dead can't do anything.

Yes Bob...and still do...

Until God makes us able. Spiritually dead means one is controled by sin. They cannot believe, for they do not understand spiritually their need of God and nor can they even spiritually understand the gospel. As the Holy Spirit works on their heart they then know of their need and understand. This is the awaken needed to believe. Until they understand the gospel, they cannot believe the gospel. It is God that brings this understanding, though the work and power of the Holy Spirit. The dead man cannot believe, for the dead mean does not understand. Understand..(awakening) comes before believeing. I do not see how anyone can say other wise. This is what I hold..and always have held.

I simply said it because you said the dead can't do anything and that included you also and jne

and for good reason...for they cannot.


In Christ....James

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

I'll be lazy too....

Ever heard of Gill?

2 Peter 1:2-3

Ver. 2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you,.... By a multiplication of grace may be meant a larger discovery of the love and favour of God; which though it admits of no degrees in itself, being never more or less in God's heart, yet, as to the manifestations of it, it is different, and capable of being increased, and drawn out to a greater length; or else an increase of the internal graces of the Spirit of God, as to the actings and exercise of them; or a larger measure of the gifts of the Spirit, for greater usefulness among them; or a clearer view, and a more enlarged knowledge of the Gospel of the grace of God, and the truths of it; and indeed, the word grace may take in all these senses: and by a multiplication of peace, which the apostle in this salutation also wishes for, may be designed an affluence of all kind of prosperity, temporal, and spiritual, external and internal; and more especially an increase of spiritual peace, a fulness of joy and peace in believing, arising from a sense of free justification by Christ's righteousness, and full pardon and atonement by his blood and sacrifice:

through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord; which is to be understood, not of a natural, but of a spiritual and evangelical knowledge; of a knowledge of God, not as the God of nature and providence, but as the God of all grace, as in Christ, and a covenant God in him, and of the person, offices, and grace of Christ; and which designs true faith in him, by which means larger discoveries of the grace of God are made, and a greater enjoyment of spiritual peace is had: or it may be rendered, "with the knowledge of God", &c. and the sense then is, that the apostle prays, as for a multiplication of grace and peace, so along with it, an increase of spiritual and evangelical knowledge; which in the best is imperfect, but may be increased by the blessing of God on those means which he has appointed for that end, such as the word and ordinances. The Syriac version renders this clause, "through the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ", leaving out the word "God", and the copulative "and", and adding the word "Christ"; and the Ethiopic version reads, "in the knowledge of our God, Christ Jesus our Lord", without any distinction. After the inscription and salutation begins the epistle, with an account of various special favours bestowed upon these persons; and are mentioned by the apostle to encourage his faith and theirs, in expectation of enjoying what he here wishes unto them, since already such great and good things had been bestowed upon them.


Ver. 3. According as his divine power,.... Meaning either the power of God the Father, to whom belong eternal power and Godhead; and he is sometimes called by the name of power itself; see Mt 26:64 being all powerful and mighty; or rather the power of Christ, since he is the next and immediate antecedent to this relative; and who, as he has the fulness of the Godhead in him, is almighty, and can do all things; and is "El-shaddai", God all-sufficient, and can communicate all things whatsoever he pleases, and does, as follows: for he

hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness; referring not so much to a temporal life, though he gives that and preserves it, and furnishes with all the mercies and comforts of it; and which come to us, from him, in a covenant way, as his left hand blessings, and in great love; but rather a spiritual life, which he is the author and maintainer of, all the joys, pleasures, blessings, and supports of it, being given by him; as also eternal life, for that, and everything appertaining to it, are from him; he gives a meetness for it, which is his own grace, and a right unto it, which is his own righteousness; and he has power to give that itself to as many as the Father has given him, and he does give it to them; and likewise all things belonging to "godliness", or internal religion; and which is the means of eternal life, and leads on to it, and is connected with it, and has the promise both of this life, and of that which is to come; and everything relating to it, or is in it, or it consists of, is from Christ: the internal graces of the Spirit, as faith, hope, and love, which, when in exercise, are the principal parts of powerful godliness, are the gifts of Christ, are received out of his fulness, and of which he is the author and finisher; and he is the donor of all the fresh supplies of grace to maintain the inward power of religion, and to assist in the external exercise of it; all which things are given

through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. The call here spoken of is not a bare outward call, by the ministry of the word, but an internal, special, and powerful one, which springs from the grace, and is according to the purpose of God, and is inseparably connected with justification and glorification; and is either of God the Father, who, as the God of all grace, calls to eternal glory by Christ; or rather of Christ himself, who calls by his Spirit and grace; and hence the saints are sometimes styled, the called of Jesus Christ, Ro 1:6 what they are called unto by him is, "glory and virtue"; by the former may be meant, the glorious state of the saints in the other world, and so answers to "life", eternal life, in the preceding clause; and by the latter, grace, and the spiritual blessings of grace here, and which answers to "godliness" in the said clause; for the saints are called both to grace and glory, and to the one, in order to the other. Some render it, "by glory and virtue"; and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, and so the Vulgate Latin version, read, "by his own glory and virtue"; that is, by his glorious power, which makes the call as effectual, and is as illustrious a specimen of the glory of his power, as was the call of Lazarus out of the grave; unless the Gospel should rather be intended by glory and virtue, which is glorious in itself, and the power of God unto salvation, and is the means by which persons are called to the communion of Christ, and the obtaining of his glory: so then this phrase, "him that hath called us to glory and virtue", is a periphrasis of Christ, through a "knowledge" of whom, and which is not notional and speculative, but spiritual, experimental, fiducial, and practical, or along with such knowledge all the above things are given; for as God, in giving Christ, gives all things along with him, so the Spirit of Christ, which is a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him, when he makes him known in the glory of his person, grace, and righteousness, also makes known the several things which are freely given of God and Christ: and this is what, among other things, makes the knowledge of Christ preferable to all other knowledge, or anything else.

In Christ....James

 

[Brother Bob]

I have always said this. Hear, not just with the ears, but hear spiritually. Look back over this thread and many other threads and see what I have said. Remember the.."how shall they hear without a preacher?" Was this not me that held this all along?

Here you are trying to have it both ways James.

No Sir; You have always said the dead can't do anything. Yes Bob...and still do...

Until God makes us able. Spiritually dead means one is controled by sin. They cannot believe, for they do not understand spiritually their need of God and nor can they even spiritually understand the gospel. As the Holy Spirit works on their heart they then know of their need and understand. This is the awaken needed to believe. Until they understand the gospel, they cannot believe the gospel. It is God that brings this understanding, though the work and power of the Holy Spirit. The dead man cannot believe, for the dead mean does not understand. Understand..(awakening) comes before believeing. I do not see how anyone can say other wise. This is what I hold..and always have held.

Again both ways

I simply said it because you said the dead can't do anything and that included you also and jne

and for good reason...for they cannot.


In Christ....James

 

[Jarthur001]

Bob,


Please tell me how a person believes before he has understanding. Thanks.

 

[Blammo]

Until God makes us able. Spiritually dead means one is controled by sin. They cannot believe, for they do not understand spiritually their need of God and nor can they even spiritually understand the gospel. As the Holy Spirit works on their heart they then know of their need and understand. This is the awaken needed to believe. Until they understand the gospel, they cannot believe the gospel. It is God that brings this understanding, though the work and power of the Holy Spirit. The dead man cannot believe, for the dead mean does not understand. Understand..(awakening) comes before believeing. I do not see how anyone can say other wise. This is what I hold..and always have held.

James,

This is what I believe. There was no way I would have ever been saved if it were not for the word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. I have no way of knowing if the call was resistable or not. I did resist for some time, but eventually surrendered. So it is hard to say. But, we see in Acts 7:51 some did "always resist the Holy Ghost".

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,


Please tell me how a person believes before he has understanding. Thanks.

I don't believe he can James. I have always said the Spirit of God Strives with all men.

Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

 

[Jarthur001]

James,

This is what I believe. There was no way I would have ever been saved if it were not for the word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. I have no way of knowing if the call was resistable or not. I did resist for some time, but eventually surrendered. So it is hard to say. But, we see in Acts 7:51 some did "always resist the Holy Ghost".

Amen brother..and we were all in that same boat before God worked in our heart.

As to Acts 7....

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

I can understand why you say this. Let me just point out one thing and get your input. Do you think that he is saying that the "uncircumcised in heart and ears"...or those in that state....those blinded to the truth because of sin....those that can not hear/spiritually understand the gospel. That these are the ones that will ALWAYS resist?

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't believe he can James. I have always said the Spirit of God Strives with all men.

Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

to your statement...
So then spiritually understand of the gospel/ spiritually understand ones need for God comes 1st. right?



the verse....
hold on Bob.

Just to be clear. Is this your proof verse? What are you saying this verse means?

 

[whatever]

Whatever, see - I gave my word I would respond and now can with out stress from my work computer as it is now functioning enough to write this out :type:


I have addressed the underlined part in the OP but if you wish more clarification just address it. That which I have embolded is my same stance as well but with a differing twist to that of the Calvinist paradigm but is addressed in the OP.

I didn't see anything in the OP that addressed the 1-to-1 link between those who are called and those who are justified, which was really my point. You did say this in the OP: "God foreknew who would believe DUE to His knowing there would be a Fall"

The problem I have with that is that the Bible does not say "those He foreknew would believe He predestinated ..." I don't think you can justify that addition, but I'm listening if you want to try.

Consider:

"IF" there is no regeneration BEFORE salvation but after, would you then conceed a plausable pardign where God KNEW everyone who WILL believe His Calling to salvation. [hypothetical]

Not sure why it matters. I don't see any Scriptural justification for saying that God decreed anything in response or reaction to anything that any creature would do. God does act in response to people's acts ("if my people ... then I ...") but I do not see any justification for saying that the decrees work that way.

I do have a question though:
IF we stopped proclaiming the gospel, would the elect still become saved SINCE their salvation isn't dependent upon their faith or belief of/in the Gospel but upon God giving them regeneration, Faith, and repentence first and then we see mans belief is a response to the gifts given and then the gift of salvation is imparted~?
If I'm wrong concerning the dynamics of the question - please explain it to me.

"I tell you, if [we] were silent, the very stones would cry out." If God did not spare Christ then why would He withhold the means of faith? The elect will be saved by whatever means necessary.

That which I embolded on your statement I will answer to:
You did not show in that section anything that resembled an effectual calling or limited attonement. Effectual Calling was not ascribed in anything there unless you bring in the presuppositional idea. Yes it speaks of believers but not to the idea of effectual calling wherewith God regenerates man, place in him the gifts of faith repentence and salvation as the culminatin of the this call but that they ARE/WILL be believers at some point. Do you see the distinction made as to who they will be and are verses what the effectual call does. This is why I state it is a pre-supposed idea coming along side these verses. As for limited atonement there in nothing there that speaks of this and again is a presuppositional idea brought along side the text.

I wasn't really trying to show it to you. I was only suggesting that you see whether it is in there or not. I'm not trying to make a Calvinist out of you.

You may think that I am only bringing my presuppositions into this passage if you like, but the fact is that John 17 is one of the reasons that I became a Calvinist. I really didn't want to find the particularity of Jesus' work there, much less the certainty that those particular people would wind up saved no matter what else happened, but I could not escape either of those ideas in this prayer. So, here I am.

 

[Blammo]

As to Acts 7....

I can understand why you say this. Let me just point out one thing and get your input. Do you think that he is saying that the "uncircumcised in heart and ears"...or those in that state....those blinded to the truth because of sin....those that can not hear/spiritually understand the gospel. That these are the ones that will ALWAYS resist?

They must be uncircumcised in heart and ears because of their prideful resistence to the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, if they were not able to hear the things of the Holy Spirit, because they are dead to the Holy Spirit, how could they be resisting the Holy Spirit?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
I don't believe he can James. I have always said the Spirit of God Strives with all men.

Job 32:8But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
to your statement...
So then spiritually understand of the gospel/ spiritually understand ones need for God comes 1st. right?



the verse....
hold on Bob.

Just to be clear. Is this your proof verse? What are you saying this verse means?

That all men have that Spirit teaching them right from wrong James and striving with them.

I think if you read our articles of faith it would help you to understand what I believe James.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Allan,

Seeing "whatever's" post above, reminded me that I wanted to address this little bit from your last reply.

............(snip)...... This is what I refer to as God ForeKnowing those who WILL believe and ordained THEM to eternal life. Thus His election is about a people unto Himself FROM OUT OF the other group.

This word (Foreknowing) is so often misused, it is a shame. Many have addressed this before, but it has been a while. So lets look close at your statement.

1) What does God know?
2) When did He knew what He knows?
3) Will the things that God knews about the future ever change?*

* A note to number 3. In other words...If God knows I will be in a house fire on Dec 23rd of 2008 at 1:23 am, and God has known this from the time that the world was made, will this event happen to me?


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

That all men have that Spirit teaching them right from wrong James and striving with them.

I think if you read our articles of faith it would help you to understand what I believe James.

Sorry to be a pain...Just to make sure.

The word spirit in Job 32:8...you feel this is "Holy Spirit" the 3rd person of the Godhead?

and...you feel also that this passage is talking about God giving understanding...the understanding in which we have been talking about...as in toward salvation?

This is how you see this?