Another solid link Alan,thanks for posting this pdf.
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The Calvinist Gospel
- Thread starter atpollard
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All of the elect will be saved...God is not willing that any of the elect will perish2pet.3:9.
God has ordained the ways and means rom10:1-17
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
All of the elect will be saved...God is not willing that any of the elect will perish2et.3:9.
God has ordained the ways and means rom10:1-17
Why would 2 Peter read as it does in versions like the KJV, "long-suffering toward us"? It is rather a strange thing that Peter would say that God is not willing that any of the elect not perish, as though this were even possible, according to some. This reading is very unsound! However, the reading "εἰς ὑμᾶς" = "towards YOU", including the "mockers" of verse of verse 3, is far better attested in the textual evidence! So, what the Bible really says here, is that God is not willing that ANY SINNER were to perish, but that they should repent and believe the Gospel and get saved! As God has been saying all along, "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23), which has been limited by the likes of the Reformed/Calvinists, who suppose they know more than God!
Just for fun, I thought I would post the GOOD NEWS from a classic REFORMED (Calvinist) source in response to the implied challenge in the above quote. I don’t really care what happens to the topic after that ... I will have made the only point that I wanted to make.
Q. According to God’s righteous judgment we deserve punishment both now and in eternity: how then can we escape this punishment and return to God’s favor?
A. God requires that his justice be satisfied.[1] Therefore the claims of this justice must be paid in full, either by ourselves or by another.[2]
1 Ex. 23:7; Rom. 2:1-11
2 Isa. 53:11; Rom. 8:3-4
Q. Can we make this payment ourselves?
A. Certainly not. Actually, we increase our debt every day.[1]
1 Matt. 6:12; Rom. 2:4-5
Q. Can another creature—any at all—pay this debt for us?
A. No. To begin with, God will not punish any other creature for what a human is guilty of.[1] Furthermore, no mere creature can bear the weight of God’s eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.[2]
1 Ezek. 18:4, 20; Heb. 2:14-18
2 Ps. 49:7-9; 130:3
Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer should we look for then?
A. One who is a true[1] and righteous[2] human, yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.[3]
1 Rom. 1:3; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:17
2 Isa. 53:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26
3 Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:6; John 1:1
Q. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?
A. God’s justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin;[1] but a sinful human could never pay for others.[2]
1 Rom. 5:12, 15; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:14-16
2 Heb. 7:26-27; 1 Pet. 3:18
Q. Why must the mediator also be true God?
A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.[1]
1 Isa. 53; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21
Q. Then who is this mediator—true God and at the same time a true and righteous human?
A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,[1] who was given to us to completely deliver us and make us right with God.[2]
1 Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:5
2 1 Cor. 1:30
Q. How do you come to know this?
A. The holy gospel tells me. God began to reveal the gospel already in Paradise;[1] later God proclaimed it by the holy patriarchs[2] and prophets[3] and foreshadowed it by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law;[4] and finally God fulfilled it through his own beloved Son.[5]
1 Gen. 3:15
2 Gen. 22:18; 49:10
3 Isa. 53; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1-2
4 Lev. 1-7; John 5:46; Heb. 10:1-10
5 Rom. 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5; Col. 2:17
Q. Are all people then saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.[1]
1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21
Q. What is true faith?
A. True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;[1] it is also a wholehearted trust,[2] which the Holy Spirit creates in me[3] by the gospel,[4] that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also,[5] forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.[6] These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.[7]
1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19
2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16
3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14
4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21
5 Gal. 2:20
6 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10
7 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10
(from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563)
This is what I used to teach my daughter about the “Theology” of God and what was important to know.
How we live our lives and handle the everyday trials and triumphs is how we taught her about the reality of living in Covenant with God and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That is my “Calvinist Gospel”.
Make of it what you will ... I am not YOUR servant. (Rom 14:4)
No way of knowing but doubtful if anyone looked up all those scripture verses. Posting references after stating your premise is the worst possible way to make your point since all scripture has context to consider. It is a waste of time if you ask me. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, he says, Posting scripture references is not the way to go.
The long suffering of God results in salvation.as per vs.15Why would 2 Peter read as it does in versions like the KJV, "long-suffering toward us"? It is rather a strange thing that Peter would say that God is not willing that any of the elect not perish, as though this were even possible, according to some. This reading is very unsound! However, the reading "εἰς ὑμᾶς" = "towards YOU", including the "mockers" of verse of verse 3, is far better attested in the textual evidence! So, what the Bible really says here, is that God is not willing that ANY SINNER were to perish, but that they should repent and believe the Gospel and get saved! As God has been saying all along, "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23), which has been limited by the likes of the Reformed/Calvinists, who suppose they know more than God!
The whole chapter contrasts the ungodly scoffers with elect persons.
All of those elected will be saved, and obviously at the time Peter wrote not all of the elect were born as of yet.
Reformed Calvinists do not claim to know more than God,which is a profane suggestion on your part.They believe God and love His grace and do not wrest Paul's writing as the scoffers do in vs16.
These persons are described as both unstable, and unlearned....to wrest scripture is to take it out and twist in as on a torture rack.
We see that often on message boards when people cannot seem to follow the we, the us, to upward, both here and in Roman's 5.
By the way God is very willing that multitudes perish, see mt7:21-24.
The saints in Rev6 were assured the ungodly will certainly be punished for putting to death believers.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Sai
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I did.
The questions, answers and footnoted scripture verses came directly from the 16th Century Catechism. When I first read it, I took nobody's word for it and looked up every verse to see just how "fast and loose" they might be playing with the context. What I discovered is that each verse (alone and within its context) tends to support one small part of each answer. I suggest picking one answer and looking up the verses keynoted for that answer and you will get a quick sense of how and why they were using those verses.
You wrote "God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe, he says".
God also says "God, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" and goes on to expound on this grace by adding "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".
... which makes me want to shout Soli Deo gloria!
Lets look at another false copy and paste assertion.
God "creates" true faith in me. This was claimed to be taught by Matthew 16:15-17. But all that passages says is God reveals spiritual truths. But the passage does not say we are compelled by irresistible grace to believe fully in those revealed truths.
Next, John 3:5 is referenced. But all this verse says is we but be born anew (of Spirit) to enter the kingdom of God. Having our faith created within us by irresistible grace is no where to be found. Thus once again a non-germane reference.
Next Acts 16:14 is referenced. Here the vague phrase "opened her heart" is claimed to mean "compelled by irresistible grace." Eisegesis front and center. All the phrase actually means is the truth was presented in such a way she could understand it, thus she was open to accepting it. Nowhere does it say her faith was created within her by irresistible grace.
Old confessions, creeds and catechisms rarely stand up to modern study.
God "creates" true faith in me. This was claimed to be taught by Matthew 16:15-17. But all that passages says is God reveals spiritual truths. But the passage does not say we are compelled by irresistible grace to believe fully in those revealed truths.
Next, John 3:5 is referenced. But all this verse says is we but be born anew (of Spirit) to enter the kingdom of God. Having our faith created within us by irresistible grace is no where to be found. Thus once again a non-germane reference.
Next Acts 16:14 is referenced. Here the vague phrase "opened her heart" is claimed to mean "compelled by irresistible grace." Eisegesis front and center. All the phrase actually means is the truth was presented in such a way she could understand it, thus she was open to accepting it. Nowhere does it say her faith was created within her by irresistible grace.
Old confessions, creeds and catechisms rarely stand up to modern study.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Just for fun, I thought I would post the GOOD NEWS from a classic REFORMED (Calvinist) source in response to the implied challenge in the above quote. I don’t really care what happens to the topic after that ... I will have made the only point that I wanted to make.
Q. According to God’s righteous judgment we deserve punishment both now and in eternity: how then can we escape this punishment and return to God’s favor?
A. God requires that his justice be satisfied.[1] Therefore the claims of this justice must be paid in full, either by ourselves or by another.[2]
1 Ex. 23:7; Rom. 2:1-11
2 Isa. 53:11; Rom. 8:3-4
Q. Can we make this payment ourselves?
A. Certainly not. Actually, we increase our debt every day.[1]
1 Matt. 6:12; Rom. 2:4-5
Q. Can another creature—any at all—pay this debt for us?
A. No. To begin with, God will not punish any other creature for what a human is guilty of.[1] Furthermore, no mere creature can bear the weight of God’s eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.[2]
1 Ezek. 18:4, 20; Heb. 2:14-18
2 Ps. 49:7-9; 130:3
Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer should we look for then?
A. One who is a true[1] and righteous[2] human, yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.[3]
1 Rom. 1:3; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:17
2 Isa. 53:9; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26
3 Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:6; John 1:1
Q. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?
A. God’s justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin;[1] but a sinful human could never pay for others.[2]
1 Rom. 5:12, 15; 1 Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:14-16
2 Heb. 7:26-27; 1 Pet. 3:18
Q. Why must the mediator also be true God?
A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.[1]
1 Isa. 53; John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:21
Q. Then who is this mediator—true God and at the same time a true and righteous human?
A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,[1] who was given to us to completely deliver us and make us right with God.[2]
1 Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 2:11; 1 Tim. 2:5
2 1 Cor. 1:30
Q. How do you come to know this?
A. The holy gospel tells me. God began to reveal the gospel already in Paradise;[1] later God proclaimed it by the holy patriarchs[2] and prophets[3] and foreshadowed it by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law;[4] and finally God fulfilled it through his own beloved Son.[5]
1 Gen. 3:15
2 Gen. 22:18; 49:10
3 Isa. 53; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1-2
4 Lev. 1-7; John 5:46; Heb. 10:1-10
5 Rom. 10:4; Gal. 4:4-5; Col. 2:17
Q. Are all people then saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
A. No. Only those are saved who through true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his benefits.[1]
1 Matt. 7:14; John 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21
Q. What is true faith?
A. True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;[1] it is also a wholehearted trust,[2] which the Holy Spirit creates in me[3] by the gospel,[4] that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also,[5] forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.[6] These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.[7]
1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19
2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16
3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14
4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21
5 Gal. 2:20
6 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10
7 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10
(from the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563)
This is what I used to teach my daughter about the “Theology” of God and what was important to know.
How we live our lives and handle the everyday trials and triumphs is how we taught her about the reality of living in Covenant with God and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That is my “Calvinist Gospel”.
Make of it what you will ... I am not YOUR servant. (Rom 14:4)
This is a doctrinal statement. Where is the gospel [glad tidings] there that you preach to the world?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I would correct the errors above, but your reading comprehension failure of what the Catechism claimed those verses say is so great that I have no idea where to begin.
Maybe this will help ...
A. True faith is not only a sure knowledge by which I hold as true all that God has revealed to us in Scripture;[1] it is also a wholehearted trust,[2] which the Holy Spirit creates in me[3] by the gospel,[4] that God has freely granted, not only to others but to me also,[5] forgiveness of sins, eternal righteousness, and salvation.[6] These are gifts of sheer grace, granted solely by Christ’s merit.[7]
3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14
- [Matthew 16:15-17 NASB] 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
- [John 3:5 NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
- [Acts 16:14 NASB] 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
The Heidelberg Catechism claimed that the Holy Spirit creates trust in us and offers in support [Matthew 16:15-17] where God and not flesh reveals spiritual truth about Christ to Peter, [John 3:5] where one must be "born of the Spirit" to enter the kingdom of God, and [Acts 16:14] where the Lord opens someone's heart.
Do those verses indicate that the Holy Spirit creates the trust in us?
I leave you to decide.
All I ask is you be honest about what it actually says.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
the Gospel that I preach:
God (is Holy)
Man (is sinful - that's a problem)
Jesus (came to fix it)
Choose (what you gonna do now that you know.)
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Um, the Gospel isn't found in John 3:16? Isn't that like the go to Gospel verse?
Sai
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
and you think that you know more than God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus Christ!!! It is He who says, "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT, and BELIEVE the gospel" (Mark 1:15). And, again Jesus says, "And that repentance for remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47)
And don't be so rude and pomopus, in saying that I might not be saved!!! WHO do you think you are to question my salvation? IF you are a believer, you are a DISGRACE to the Body of Jesus Christ!!!
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
He can't "choose".
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Not technically. John 3:16 only makes sense in the light of passages like 1Corinthians 15:1-4.
God "giving" the Son does not say that the Son would die an atoning death for sins and does not say he will rise again and does not say how to appropriate the benefits of that act.
Of course John 3:16 is about the gospel, but it doesn't spell out the gospel like other passages do.
We only understand John 3:16 to be about the gospel because of those other passages.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
and you think that you know more than God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus Christ!!! It is He who says, "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT, and BELIEVE the gospel" (Mark 1:15). And, again Jesus says, "And that repentance for remission of sins should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47)
And don't be so rude and pomopus, in saying that I might not be saved!!! WHO do you think you are to question my salvation? IF you are a believer, you are a DISGRACE to the Body of Jesus Christ!!!
Again, repentance means different things in different dispensations.
Agreed about Sai. Too many here are so doctrinally correct that they'll damn a brother to hell.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The point George is that Barry was dishonest about the other post. It definitely contained the Gospel and was another lame attempt at Anti-Calvinists to try to paint us in a bad light by misrepresenting our position. It is all you have.
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