The Catholic Church Is Not Entirely False And Does Worship The Biblical And Historical Jesus As God

[JohnDeereFan]

In the end you are the one who ignores 2000 years of Christian scholarship. For over 1400 years the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church taught but one set of doctrines and truth's and all of Christendom followed these teachings. Then suddenly, out of nowhere one man decided he knew more than the accumulated knowledge of the Church and went rogue, ripping up the Holy Bible so it was left with only the things he wanted to remain in it. Other men then compounded his error and we have what exists today, over 30,000 new Christian sects, each claiming they have the truth of the Christian experience.

First of all, this shows a remarkable ignorance of Christian history.

Second, it's just flat out dishonest, as the "30,000 denominations" lie has been debunked numerous times.

Third, the same source the "30,000 denominations" lie comes from also lists 242 "denominations" within Catholicism.

No, you are the one's who have strayed, following a false form of Christianity by having the pulpit as the highlight of your worship, rather than the altar and Christ's sacrifice on Calvary - the memorial that He commanded us to re-enact.

Please point to the Bible verses you believe show that the preaching and teaching of God's Word is not a valid expression of worship.

"Do this in memory of me" He said, we do and you don't - you deny and we believe, it's that simple.

Another lie. We just celebrated the Lord's Supper last week.

Of course, we didn't say abracadabra and turn Jesus into a cracker, so I guess that doesn't count.

Are you unable to answer my questions about the eisegesis you used to cram Purgatory into the passage about the Bema Seat Judgment?

Are you unable to answer my question about why we should trust your opinion over that of 2,000 years of Christian scholarship?
.

 

[Darrell C]

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. -Ac. 13.39

This is true. Do you feel that this contradicts or counters anything I said in my post?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Concerning Purgatory is quite easy. There is NO SINNING in heaven. No SINNER can enter heaven.

Revelations 21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


So you know off the bat, There is no sinning in heaven, and nothing unclean, no sinner can enter heaven.

Have you stopped sinning? When and where will you stop? Hint: When and Where is BEFORE you enter heaven. We got a name for that time and place when you are finally cleansed away and will never sin again.

You can call that moment what ever name you want to give it. A rose by any other name is still a rose. We call this purgatory.


If you say YOU will never going to stop sinning, well then your never going to enter heaven either, It says precisely no sin will enter there. Its going to STOP before and then you go to heaven. How can remain a mystery, Where is mystery. Purgatory might be your front lawn and God is going to hose you down with a garden hose. We don't know the details. but we know you WILL STOP SINNING before you enter heaven.

IF being in a sinless stae is required for heaven, all will be stuck in hell!

 

[Yeshua1]

In the end you are the one who ignores 2000 years of Christian scholarship. For over 1400 years the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church taught but one set of doctrines and truth's and all of Christendom followed these teachings. Then suddenly, out of nowhere one man decided he knew more than the accumulated knowledge of the Church and went rogue, ripping up the Holy Bible so it was left with only the things he wanted to remain in it. Other men then compounded his error and we have what exists today, over 30,000 new Christian sects, each claiming they have the truth of the Christian experience.

It is telling that even with the first great schism of Christianity between the East and West in 1054, our Eastern Orthodox brothers never dared to abandon the solid orthodoxy that existed up until that point. They themselves kept the sacramental way of belief, which included infant baptism, a liturgical form of worship and most importantly the "Real Presence" of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist.

No, you are the one's who have strayed, following a man made form of Christianity by having the pulpit as the highlight of your worship, rather than the altar and Christ's sacrifice on Calvary - the memorial that He commanded us to re-enact. "Do this in memory of me" He said, we do and you don't - you deny (Real Presence) and we believe, it's that simple.

The early christians followed the canon of the scriptures, and the catholic Church went Apostasy at Council of trent!

 

[John Yurich]

Why would you continue to go to a church where a false gospel is being preached?

If you were a baptismal candidate in our church, that would be a huge red flag, to say the least.

What difference does it make if I attend both the Catholic Church and the Baptist Church? Why would it be a huge red flag in your church that a baptismal candidate attends the Catholic Church on late Saturday afternoons but also attends a Baptist Church on Sunday mornings? If I gave my life to Christ some 20 years ago then I am saved regardless if I attend both the Catholic Church and the Baptist Church. I totally reject and repudiate all the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and all the unscriptural parts to the Mass.

 

[John Yurich]

Not Biblical.



So, you want to be half-Baptist who goes to a Catholic church, but doesn't submit to either one of them?

It is totally biblical and a Baptist teaching to ask Jesus to come into ones heart and become their Savior(giving ones life to Christ). I submit to that small Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings. But I do not submit to the Catholic parish I attend on late Saturday afternoons.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Why would it be a huge red flag in your church that a baptismal candidate attends the Catholic Church on late Saturday afternoons but also attends a Baptist Church on Sunday mornings?

Because it shows that you neither understand the Gospel, nor care about sound doctrine.

I totally reject and repudiate all the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and all the unscriptural parts to the Mass.

No, just the ones you consider unscriptural.

It is totally biblical and a Baptist teaching to ask Jesus to come into ones heart and become their Savior(giving ones life to Christ).

Actually, it isn't Biblical at all. The Bible says we are saved by repentance and faith, not by "asking Jesus to come into ones heart".

I understand the Gospel to mean what the Baptist Church teaches that one is saved by giving ones life to Christ by accepting Jesus as ones Savior and Lord.

Not Biblical.

I care about sound doctrine as I accept the biblical doctrines of that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings. When I state I reject and repudiate all the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and all the unscriptural parts of the Mass that is exactly what I mean.

Oh, I know that's what you mean. The problem is that by your posts here, I don't believe you know what's Biblical and what's not.

 

[John Yurich]

Because it shows that you neither understand the Gospel, nor care about sound doctrine.



No, just the ones you consider unscriptural.



Actually, it isn't Biblical at all. The Bible says we are saved by repentance and faith, not by "asking Jesus to come into ones heart".

By attending the Catholic Church on late Saturday afternoons and the Baptist Church on Sunday mornings it does not show that I neither understand the Gospel nor care about sound doctrine. Where do you come up with that insanity? I understand the Gospel to mean what the Baptist Church teaches that one is saved by giving ones life to Christ by accepting Jesus as ones Savior and Lord. I care about sound doctrine as I accept the biblical doctrines of that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings. When I state I reject and repudiate all the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and all the unscriptural parts of the Mass that is exactly what I mean.

 

[utilyan]

If you really believe you can say some magic words and turn Jesus Christ into a cracker, then you have a false Christ.



OK. Let's say you're right. Why should I believe the opinions of some non-Christian cultist who denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, believes in works salvation, denies the teaching of scripture, believes Christ is a cookie, and prays to dead people over 2,000 years of Christian scholarship?

And what eisegesis did you use to come to the conclusion that 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 has anything at all to do with the Unbiblical notion of Purgatory?



No, my illiterate friend. Google the phrase "simul justus et peccator.

Sure "simul justus et peccator" right now. But PRIOR to entering heaven you must be PURE/SINLESS never to sin again.

So your a sinner right now, great. Tell us about when you STOP. There is NO SIN in heaven and nothing WITH SIN can enter.

Is there going to be a where and when you are completely regenerated? God is not going to let you sin in heaven. Your not going to get a license to sin, or a "i am pure" T-shirt. In heaven you will be 100% actually pure, The catch is you have to be 100%PURE to even get in.


Your looking at the legalistic perspective of satisfying laws. I'm looking at the motivations by which God placed those laws in the first place.

You have to be regenerated, you have to have a glorified body, you have to be pure, Then you have the capacity of entering heaven.


Example you win a trip to Hawaii you get to go there they have a place for you. To get there you to take a plane or boat, They specifically say in the prize you get a boat or plane trip, because thats the only way to get in Hawaii.

So what do we know? there is a plane or boat place involved and we know the trip happens BEFORE you enter Hawaii.



Well Revelations 21 states NOTHING WITH SIN can enter heaven and there is NO SINNING IN HEAVEN.

So you won a trip to heaven, I'am not debating that. I'm saying so what plane and what time do you leave?

According to this ticket here you will stop sinning BEFORE you enter heaven. And since its BEFORE you enter heaven, the WHERE is NOT HEAVEN.


You see we actually thought these things through, There is a time and place you will be HEALED and CLEANSED fully.

Its going to happen. Would you like to give a name for this final Cleansing?

Let me give you a tip, don't use the LATIN WORD for Cleansing.

"No, my illiterate friend. Google the phrase "simul justus et peccator."

You are very intelligent, John, thank you for your knowledge. I'd ask you to google "Is there sinning in heaven".

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I understand the Gospel to mean what the Baptist Church teaches that one is saved by giving ones life to Christ by accepting Jesus as ones Savior and Lord.

Not Biblical.

I care about sound doctrine as I accept the biblical doctrines of that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings. When I state I reject and repudiate all the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and all the unscriptural parts of the Mass that is exactly what I mean.[/QU

Sure "simul justus et peccator" right now. But PRIOR to entering heaven you must be PURE/SINLESS never to sin again.

So your a sinner right now, great. Tell us about when you STOP. There is NO SIN in heaven and nothing WITH SIN can enter.

Is there going to be a where and when you are completely regenerated? God is not going to let you sin in heaven. Your not going to get a license to sin, or a "i am pure" T-shirt. In heaven you will be 100% actually pure, The catch is you have to be 100%PURE to even get in.


Your looking at the legalistic perspective of satisfying laws. I'm looking at the motivations by which God placed those laws in the first place.

You have to be regenerated, you have to have a glorified body, you have to be pure, Then you have the capacity of entering heaven.


Example you win a trip to Hawaii you get to go there they have a place for you. To get there you to take a plane or boat, They specifically say in the prize you get a boat or plane trip, because thats the only way to get in Hawaii.

So what do we know? there is a plane or boat place involved and we know the trip happens BEFORE you enter Hawaii.



Well Revelations 21 states NOTHING WITH SIN can enter heaven and there is NO SINNING IN HEAVEN.

So you won a trip to heaven, I'am not debating that. I'm saying so what plane and what time do you leave?

According to this ticket here you will stop sinning BEFORE you enter heaven. And since its BEFORE you enter heaven, the WHERE is NOT HEAVEN.


You see we actually thought these things through, There is a time and place you will be HEALED and CLEANSED fully.

Its going to happen. Would you like to give a name for this final Cleansing?

Let me give you a tip, don't use the LATIN WORD for Cleansing.

Don't know what to tell you. The Bible says we've been perfected. You deny that. The Bible says Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us. You deny that. The Bible says that Christ's atonement is sufficient. You deny that. The Bible says God no longer sees us as sinful. You deny that.


OTE]

Oh, I know that's what you mean. The problem is that by your posts here, I don't believe you know what's Biblical and what's not.

Sure "simul justus et peccator" right now. But PRIOR to entering heaven you must be PURE/SINLESS never to sin again.

So your a sinner right now, great. Tell us about when you STOP. There is NO SIN in heaven and nothing WITH SIN can enter.

Is there going to be a where and when you are completely regenerated? God is not going to let you sin in heaven. Your not going to get a license to sin, or a "i am pure" T-shirt. In heaven you will be 100% actually pure, The catch is you have to be 100%PURE to even get in.


Your looking at the legalistic perspective of satisfying laws. I'm looking at the motivations by which God placed those laws in the first place.

You have to be regenerated, you have to have a glorified body, you have to be pure, Then you have the capacity of entering heaven.


Example you win a trip to Hawaii you get to go there they have a place for you. To get there you to take a plane or boat, They specifically say in the prize you get a boat or plane trip, because thats the only way to get in Hawaii.

So what do we know? there is a plane or boat place involved and we know the trip happens BEFORE you enter Hawaii.



Well Revelations 21 states NOTHING WITH SIN can enter heaven and there is NO SINNING IN HEAVEN.

So you won a trip to heaven, I'am not debating that. I'm saying so what plane and what time do you leave?

According to this ticket here you will stop sinning BEFORE you enter heaven. And since its BEFORE you enter heaven, the WHERE is NOT HEAVEN.


You see we actually thought these things through, There is a time and place you will be HEALED and CLEANSED fully.

Its going to happen. Would you like to give a name for this final Cleansing?

Let me give you a tip, don't use the LATIN WORD for Cleansing.

Don't know what to tell you. The Bible says we've been perfected. You deny that. The Bible says Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us. You deny that. The Bible says that Christ's atonement is sufficient. You deny that. The Bible says God no longer sees us as sinful. You deny that.

If you really believe that the salvific rituals and rules and beliefs of Catholicism can save you, then go ahead and follow that.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I understand the Gospel to mean what the Baptist Church teaches that one is saved by giving ones life to Christ by accepting Jesus as ones Savior and Lord.

Not Biblical.

I care about sound doctrine as I accept the biblical doctrines of that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings. When I state I reject and repudiate all the unscriptural Catholic doctrines and all the unscriptural parts of the Mass that is exactly what I mean.

Oh, I know that's what you mean. The problem is that by your posts here, I don't believe you know what's Biblical and what's not.

Sure "simul justus et peccator" right now. But PRIOR to entering heaven you must be PURE/SINLESS never to sin again.

So your a sinner right now, great. Tell us about when you STOP. There is NO SIN in heaven and nothing WITH SIN can enter.

Is there going to be a where and when you are completely regenerated? God is not going to let you sin in heaven. Your not going to get a license to sin, or a "i am pure" T-shirt. In heaven you will be 100% actually pure, The catch is you have to be 100%PURE to even get in.


Your looking at the legalistic perspective of satisfying laws. I'm looking at the motivations by which God placed those laws in the first place.

You have to be regenerated, you have to have a glorified body, you have to be pure, Then you have the capacity of entering heaven.


Example you win a trip to Hawaii you get to go there they have a place for you. To get there you to take a plane or boat, They specifically say in the prize you get a boat or plane trip, because thats the only way to get in Hawaii.

So what do we know? there is a plane or boat place involved and we know the trip happens BEFORE you enter Hawaii.



Well Revelations 21 states NOTHING WITH SIN can enter heaven and there is NO SINNING IN HEAVEN.

So you won a trip to heaven, I'am not debating that. I'm saying so what plane and what time do you leave?

According to this ticket here you will stop sinning BEFORE you enter heaven. And since its BEFORE you enter heaven, the WHERE is NOT HEAVEN.


You see we actually thought these things through, There is a time and place you will be HEALED and CLEANSED fully.

Its going to happen. Would you like to give a name for this final Cleansing?

Let me give you a tip, don't use the LATIN WORD for Cleansing.

Don't know what to tell you. The Bible says we've been perfected. You deny that. The Bible says Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us. You deny that. The Bible says that Christ's atonement is sufficient. You deny that. The Bible says God no longer sees us as sinful. You deny that.

 

[utilyan]

Not Biblical.

John I'm agreeing with you here. We are righteous imputed by Jesus Christ. We are clothed in his righteousness.

You say " The Bible says we've been perfected."

Well then are you perfect?

So you do not sin any longer correct?



Lets say you got a disease called sin. And normally there is no hope for this fellah they just die and thrown in a fire.

But the DOCTOR, JESUS, says wait we can save him. Don't throw this guy in the fire, I am going to protect him.

In heaven you are going to be perfectly healed.


ANSWER THIS: WILL YOU SIN IN HEAVEN?



The bible is clear..... IN HEAVEN is not where you stop sinning. It has to stop before you even enter.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

John I'm agreeing with you here. We are righteous imputed by Jesus Christ. We are clothed in his righteousness.

Actually, Catholics don't believe this. Catholics believe in infused righteousness, not imputed righteousness.

You say " The Bible says we've been perfected."

No, the Bible says we've been perfected.

Well then are you perfect?

According to God, I have been perfected.

So you do not sin any longer correct?

Wow. That reading comprehension problem of yours is really not doing you any favors, is it? How many times do you plan to keep asking me this?

Again, google the phrase "simul justus et peccator"

ANSWER THIS: WILL YOU SIN IN HEAVEN?

How does one sin without a sin nature?

The bible is clear..... IN HEAVEN is not where you stop sinning. It has to stop before you even enter.

Verse, please.

 

[John Yurich]

Not Biblical.



Oh, I know that's what you mean. The problem is that by your posts here, I don't believe you know what's Biblical and what's not.

When I met with the Pastor of that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings to request that I be Baptized at that Baptist Church he asked if I had accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord(which is basic Baptist doctrine). And I stated that I had some 20 years ago during an Altar Call at a Non Denominational Church. You want proof that I know which Catholic doctrines are unscriptural and which are scriptural. The following Catholic doctrines are unscriptural: The Mass is a sacrifice, prayers to the Virgin Mary and the Saints for intercession, Purgatory, transubstantiation, the belief that Baptism imparts salvation, the belief that the Sacraments have something to do with salvation, the belief that the Virgin Mary remained a virgin after having Jesus, the belief that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, Confession of sins to the priest, celibacy for priests and nuns and Apostolic Succession. The following Catholic doctrines are scriptural: I still believe that Saint Peter was the First Pope, I still believe there are 7 Sacraments but they are just church ceremonies dealing with various stages in life and do not have anything to do with salvation, I still believe in Infant Baptism as well as Adult Baptism but I believe that Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Jesus just like Adult Baptism is just a dedication of adults to Jesus and a profession of faith that the adult has given their life to Christ, I still believe that Confirmation is the impartation of the Holy Spirit upon the one being confirmed, I still believe in the Sacrament of Confession(but not confessing sins to the priest but only confessing sins directly to Jesus), I still believe that Holy Communion is a Sacrament(but only the way the Lutheran Church teaches), I still believe that Marriage is a Sacrament, I still believe in the Sacrament of Holy Orders(ordination of priests), the prayers to Jesus, the Lord's Prayer, the words of Jesus used in the Eucharistic Prayers, the Apostles and Nicene Creeds.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

When I met with the Pastor of that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings to request that I be Baptized at that Baptist Church he asked if I had accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord(which is basic Baptist doctrine).

Sadly, because of the influence of pop-Christianity, it has become a popular doctrine in some Baptist churches, but it is not a Biblical doctrine.

 

[John Yurich]

Sadly, because of the influence of pop-Christianity, it has become a popular doctrine in some Baptist churches, but it is not a Biblical doctrine.

It is based upon Romans 10:9. I have an Independent Baptist man friend who was saved at age 12 by going forward at an Altar Call at his Independent Baptist Church and accepted Jesus as his Savior and Lord. Here is the website address for that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings so you can look up their Statement of Faith and find out that they do preach the biblical doctrine of salvation: www.rolchastings.org.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It is based upon Romans 10:9.

"Based on" does not mean the same thing.

I have an Independent Baptist man friend who was saved at age 12 by going forward at an Altar Call at his Independent Baptist Church and accepted Jesus as his Savior and Lord.

Not Biblical.

 

[John Yurich]

"Based on" does not mean the same thing.



Not Biblical.

Romans 10:9 states "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved". That means the same thing because during an Altar Call one confesses that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. That is what I did some 20 years ago during that Altar Call.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Romans 10:9 states "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved". That means the same thing because during an Altar Call one confesses that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. That is what I did some 20 years ago during that Altar Call.

And by the analogy of scripture (which you will almost certainly respond to by saying, "Oh, you think scripture is just an analogy? I thought you stupid Christians took the Bible all literal and stuff!") we can see that Romans 10:9 does not mean to "accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior", which is a concept that comes from Charles Finney, not from the Bible.

 

[notadoctor]

Eph. 2: 28 says that grace is the gift OF God. .....not FROM God but OF God. 1 Peter 1:4 calls grace a partaking of the Divine nature. Paul calls grace the "love of God that has been poured into our hearts" Romans 5:5
Grace actually makes us righteous. Romans 5:19
Simply put grace is God's Divine assistance that is infused into our soul that makes us go from a child of Adam to a child of God. We are regenerated by grace which causes us to conform our will to His will so that we can keep His commandments, love God and neighbor. But we can fall from grace and be cut off from Christ (Gal 5: 4) . This is why Scripture warns born again saved believers that if they commit certain sins they will not inherit the kingdom of God.
We can be restored back into grace by once again repenting and confessing our sins.
Grace is NOT God choosing to save me rather than damn me. Grace is not God's compassion or kindness. Grace is God Himself infused into our soul.

Thanks for the insight...
you said...
"Simply put grace is God's Divine assistance that is infused into our soul that makes us go from a child of Adam to a child of God."
Of your response, this is the closest to what my understanding of grace is, in the Christian sense. For the other parts, I have this to say.
I see no difference between calling grace a gift OF God or the gift FROM God, it is not both. For example, I was born OF my mother, I was also born FROM my mother. What's the difference?

I also believe we must acknowledge that grace is unmerited...that is what separates it from simple kindness.

Finally, isn't the important thing to understand that grace encompasses all the blessings that God bestows upon whosoever believes (trusts) in Christ, in spite of their sin, to include: forgiveness, eternal life, gift of the Holy Spirit, the privilege of having the title child of God, and any other blessing, _______fill in the blank___________, etc.?"

The Galatians reference can be devoted to a whole other thread, however.