Eternal justification contradicts scripture.
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The Catholic Church Is Not Entirely False And Does Worship The Biblical And Historical Jesus As God
- Thread starter John Yurich
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Eternal justification contradicts scripture.
You are suggesting that the Church is the authority to interpret Scripture...on what basis do you believe that the Church is the authority to interpret Scripture?
You mock it by using that word. The bread, or wafer if you will does indeed become it according to the Scriptures and church teaching throughout the ages.
Oh please, don't now try to talk nicely as I am not fooled. I say to you that the words you said were used mockingly, picked out by you to convey something else than what I meant. Incantation indeed! The changing of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood comes about through the Holy Spirit, not some divination as you really meant. You really should watch what you say, because if we are right in our belief that this happens because the Holy Spirit is involved, you run the risk of blaspheming and you are well aware that such a sin is unforgivable.
Again, you mock and seek to belittle. I know what you meant.
Okay, I will go on with this useless exercise and you will still not agree with the interpretation of the Church which is evidenced by the Scriptures, taught by the Early Church Fathers, believed by all Christendom, (including our Eastern Orthodox brothers). Even Martin Luther, the Grand Poobah of the protestors believed this and it stood the test of time until a man by the name of Huldrych Zwingli thought up something different.
We have 1 Cor 11: 23-29. John 6: 52-61. Matt 26-28. Mk 14: 22-24. Lk 22: 14-20. So now, go ahead and deny this truth that comes from the Scriptures and the historical record of the Christian faith.
On the basis of what Jesus Christ said as He established the Universal Christian Church here on earth.
There's nothing to deny. You just threw out a bunch of random scripture passages without telling us what you believe they're supposed to support.
No, I am not going to dig through threads in which you posted on Catholic.com years ago to find the Nast you posted. Your tactics have not changed at all. You go down the laundry list of typical Fightin fundie objections to Catholicism, Before the great purge of Catholics on this board years back the Catholics took youu apart. There were quite a few conversions to the Catholic faith on this board (myself included) and for that reason the purge. You, DHK, SaturnNeptune and other anti-Catholic enthusiast continually had your panties in a wad . As you know, now very few Catholics are allowed on this board to defend the faith. It's a pile on now and of course that's the way it's designed to be.
Well, when one is justified through Christ and his work...just how long do you think that justification is good for?
And keep in mind that "eternal" and everlasting" are often synonymous terms in Scripture. If you are thinking I am implying justification prior to the point in time where a man and woman becomes justified through Christ, I am not. It is more of looking at the dichotomy of existence we know about, the physical/temporal existence created for man, and the Eternal existence that is God's realm. In that sense eternal is a proper designation.
Secondly, I distinguish between men being justified by faith and works prior to the Cross. I do not equate, except from an eternal perspective, justification by faith alone with being justified through the Work of the Cross (which includes the ministry of conviction through which men are enlightened to the Gospel and saved). Abraham was justified by faith, and it was reckoned unto his account for righteousness, but it is not the righteousness of Christ imputed to him. If that were the case then there had been no need for Christ to die to make atonement for his sins, and we know without controversy that every man and woman stood and stands in need of the Atonement of the Cross.
It's a tough subject to consider, but I do recommend giving it some consideration.
God bless.
In other words, you lied.
So do you have a link for this claim or are you lying about this, too?
You've just lied twice so how do we know you're not lying now?
What brilliant argument did you make to convert these alleged converts?
Not likely as I usually post in the music section.
It is called "BAPTISTBoard" for a reason. If it offends you so that Catholics are not allowed to defend Catholicism here, then are you equally offended that virtually every Christian who goes to Catholic.com ends up being banned for, in the words of the moderators when I was banned from there, "promoting doctrines contrary to Catholicism"?
Or is this just more of the typical "I can be as obnoxious as I want to Christians but play the victim card anytime somebody objects to Catholicism's beliefs" whining?
As it stands now, you lied about me, then lied about me again, have been unable to show any scripture to back up Purgatory, the assumption of Mary, the sinlessness of Mary, Mary's "ever-virginity", infused righteousness, or any of the other bizarre beliefs that make up Catholicism.
If we set aside the Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical dispute/antagonism, and consider that only those who have the Spirit of God can understand the Word of God, and that only they are in fact the Church (rather than just visible members who attend), that simple truth we are forced to conclude is that only the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture.
Secondly, there is an established principle in Scripture that we are to follow the rule of the leadership of the Body. But, just as governing authorities are put in place by God for the purpose of dealing with matters of Law, and are to be a fearful body to those who do evil, we do not excuse evil when it comes from the governing body itself. In other words, when a government (or leadership) turns from the principles which should govern them as they govern (Sodarn Insane of Iraq, for example), then there is reason not to be in subjection to them.
All that said, if we saw more obedience to leadership in the Body, I think the Body would function more as God intends her to. So I can appreciate the respect given by Catholics to their leadership, and I think there are many who view the discipline the Catholic Church displays as a distinctly Christian characteristic.
As I have always maintained, I have problems with a number of Catholic Doctrines and Practice, and one of those is the idea that the Body can only look to the leadership for interpretation. But, what some might not notice about some of the Catholics here is that they are in fact utilizing their own understandings in many of these debates.
Don't tell them that, though, it may bother their conscience...
Bottom line point is it is simply a fact that only the Church can interpret the Word of God, and the Church (which includes the whole Body) has been commanded to be in obedience to those who have the "rule over us." But what we have to understand about "the Church interpreting" is that (1) a new generation is always going to need to be raised up, and (2) we are also under command of God for personal study, because just because there is a leadership principle in the Body, that does not negate the fact that false brethren can creep in, and their doctrine is just as subject to being tested as anyone else's.
God bless.
SCRIPTURE for your theory please.
I already provided scripture that NO SIN ENTERS heaven.
I suggest you research GLORIFIED BODIES, The Resurrection in the LAST DAY.
Jesus Christ says he is going to resurrect you on the Last Day. Your heavenly body is not a dead body, your more "dead" now then in the glorified state. This glorification It doesn't happen in heaven.
If you don't believe you will be resurrected then you don't believe in the Resurrection of Jesus:
1 corinthians 15
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
Read closely the SPIRIT IS -->RAISED. If you start in heaven there is no raising there. God has to pick you up. I don't care about the time whether its done in one second or one century you stop sinning FIRST then you enter heaven.
1 corinthians 15
35But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
BEFORE you enter heaven there is already things that are done
Revelations 21
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
Are you going to be resurrected? Or do you have this jumping jack thing where you go to heaven then come back and go back to heaven again?
Before you go, all that is evil is thrown in lake of fire, even our bad things. That is why you even here Jesus say better to pluck an eye out and throw it in hell if its evil.
The ONLY Person who has the right to reveal and illuminate the scriptures is the Holy Spirit, as he authored them and knows what He intended to say to us, not any church!If we set aside the Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical dispute/antagonism, and consider that only those who have the Spirit of God can understand the Word of God, and that only they are in fact the Church (rather than just visible members who attend), that simple truth we are forced to conclude is that only the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture.
Secondly, there is an established principle in Scripture that we are to follow the rule of the leadership of the Body. But, just as governing authorities are put in place by God for the purpose of dealing with matters of Law, and are to be a fearful body to those who do evil, we do not excuse evil when it comes from the governing body itself. In other words, when a government (or leadership) turns from the principles which should govern them as they govern (Sodarn Insane of Iraq, for example), then there is reason not to be in subjection to them.
All that said, if we saw more obedience to leadership in the Body, I think the Body would function more as God intends her to. So I can appreciate the respect given by Catholics to their leadership, and I think there are many who view the discipline the Catholic Church displays as a distinctly Christian characteristic.
As I have always maintained, I have problems with a number of Catholic Doctrines and Practice, and one of those is the idea that the Body can only look to the leadership for interpretation. But, what some might not notice about some of the Catholics here is that they are in fact utilizing their own understandings in many of these debates.
Don't tell them that, though, it may bother their conscience...
Bottom line point is it is simply a fact that only the Church can interpret the Word of God, and the Church (which includes the whole Body) has been commanded to be in obedience to those who have the "rule over us." But what we have to understand about "the Church interpreting" is that (1) a new generation is always going to need to be raised up, and (2) we are also under command of God for personal study, because just because there is a leadership principle in the Body, that does not negate the fact that false brethren can creep in, and their doctrine is just as subject to being tested as anyone else's.
God bless.
Each Chriatian has that ministry from Him available to them!
Right now in the sight of God, I have no sin that will keep me out of heaven, as the Father sees me just as pure as jesus Himself, as He imputed to me His own righteousness!
Wait, are you now claiming I don't believe in the bodily resurrection of believers?
He doesn't believe that. He believes that one must work all their sins away.
It's interesting that he believes we will be able to do that in Purgatory when the whole point of Purgatory is that we aren't able to do it here.
He doesn't believe that. He believes that one must work all their sins away.
It's interesting that he believes we will be able to do that in Purgatory when the whole point of Purgatory is that we aren't able to do it here.
I know, as sad thing is that the RCC denies the truth that the Reformation sought to bring back to the church!
This may be the single greatest statement I have read so far on the Baptist Board! Thanks for making me laugh, Green Machine!
[emoji41] [emoji23] [emoji109]
And so many are in hell because of the heresy the Roman church embraced regarding redemption. Thankfully there was always God's elect who spoke out and called people back to Christ and away from Rome.
Isn't the proper phrase "hocus pocus?" [emoji83] [emoji84] [emoji72]
I shouldn't have called him "illiterate", but he just kept asking me the same question over and over and over and ignoring the answer each time.
When I refer to "eternal justification," I am referring to the doctrine that the elect were justified from eternity, that the will of God to justify results in our actual justification. I realize that Gill and others reasoned that justification as an immanent act of God must be eternal. For them, justification in time and in our experience, then, only relates to our conscience as we come to the knowledge of what was already true of us in Christ from eternity. Is this what you are saying? Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you. In my humble opinion, the whole idea is contrary to what scripture reveals and is an arrogant attempt to comprehend the mind of God (Deu. 29.29). Being creatures of time, justification is revealed to us in the temporal realm, in the realm of our existence. Ro. 8.29 places justification following foreknowledge and calling, precisely where I would place it. I cannot go back any further than that.
The point is that righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith. It was not needless for Christ to die for our sins just because Abraham was justified by the blood of Christ before Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Those before Christ were justified because Christ was going to die for their sins, and those after Christ are justified because Christ died for their sins.
But you called him "friend" so that gives you some grace points on the leader board. [emoji41]
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