The catholic church recants!

[Thinkingstuff]

You have left the Catholic church but the Catholic church has not left your soteriology as you defend justification by works, deny the ordinances are symoblic in nature. There is no comparison between the error of salvation and the error of dispensationalism as the former affects one's personal salvation but the latter does not.

I believe that the covenant of grace has been in effect since the garden of Eden and there has been but one way of salvation, one gospel, one Savior from Genesis to Revelation. Not many dispensationalists would claim that. I do believe in the future salvation of Israel as a nation.

you and I agree on the last paragraph. Save the future salvation of Israel. I believe salvation is in Jews becoming Christian not being better jews. I never defend justification by works. The law is a dead thing and can't save. I defend that Faith without works is dead. Big distinguishing factor that you don't seem to see. I also don't believe Jesus commands us to do irrelevant things. If a spiritual truth is not in effect then it doesn't matter if you do it. Yet we are commanded. Yet in being baptised Jesus "fulfilled all righteousness".

 

[Dr. Walter]

you and I agree on the last paragraph. Save the future salvation of Israel. I believe salvation is in Jews becoming Christian not being better jews. I never defend justification by works. The law is a dead thing and can't save. I defend that Faith without works is dead. Big distinguishing factor that you don't seem to see. I also don't believe Jesus commands us to do irrelevant things. If a spiritual truth is not in effect then it doesn't matter if you do it. Yet we are commanded. Yet in being baptised Jesus "fulfilled all righteousness".

You believe no such things! You just think you do! Romans 4:1-5 has nothing to do with becoming a Christian by becoming a Jew or anything at all in regard to the law of Moses. Your works are equally dead (Heb. 6:2 - "repentance from DEAD works") and you need to repent of any kind of justificaiton by works before God. James 2:10 denies that works justify anyone before God but they do justify our faith before men (James 2:14-18).

Justifying faith before God is "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:1-6) but faith is justified WITH WORKS before Men (James 2:14-18). One must be justified by faith BEFORE they can be justified by works as justification by faith EXLCUDES works altogether.

What you do not get is Justification by faith has to do SOLELY with the OBJECT of faith whereas justification by works has to do SOLELY with the ACTIONS of faith. It is the OBJECT of faith that gives validity for the ACTIONS of faith "before God" and vice versa BEFORE MEN. The object of justifying faith is SOLELY the faithfulness of Jesus Christ by his redemptive works FOR us WITHOUT our works. Justification by works is the RESPONSE or REACTION of love motivating obedience DUE TO having already been justified by faith and where there is no appropriate manifestation of that love toward men your justification by faith PROFITS YOU NOTHING but is DEAD in the SPHERE OF HUMAN OBSERVATION. I might add it is also "dead" in regard to redeeming the time (Eph. 5:17) as that part of your life is LOST for God's glory and use here as well as reward there.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe salvation is in Jews becoming Christian not being better jews.

The salvation of the nation Israel is by the same covenant of grace that saves gentiles. God promised Abraham more than just that the promised seed in him would be a blessing to all other nations but a blessing to the nation of Israel that sprang from his loins as well and that has yet to be fulfilled. Just because the same blessings that accompany the covenant of grace are applied to Gentiles does not mean they are restricted to Gentiles nor does it mean that the specific blessings promised to Israel are given to the Gentiles.

 

[brucebaptist]

sorry. dupe. delete

as false religion grows, true faith wanes... God is awesome![/QUOTE]

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You believe no such things! You just think you do! Romans 4:1-5 has nothing to do with becoming a Christian by becoming a Jew or anything at all in regard to the law of Moses. Your works are equally dead (Heb. 6:2 - "repentance from DEAD works") and you need to repent of any kind of justificaiton by works before God. James 2:10 denies that works justify anyone before God but they do justify our faith before men (James 2:14-18).

Justifying faith before God is "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:1-6) but faith is justified WITH WORKS before Men (James 2:14-18). One must be justified by faith BEFORE they can be justified by works as justification by faith EXLCUDES works altogether.

What you do not get is Justification by faith has to do SOLELY with the OBJECT of faith whereas justification by works has to do SOLELY with the ACTIONS of faith. It is the OBJECT of faith that gives validity for the ACTIONS of faith "before God" and vice versa BEFORE MEN. The object of justifying faith is SOLELY the faithfulness of Jesus Christ by his redemptive works FOR us WITHOUT our works. Justification by works is the RESPONSE or REACTION of love motivating obedience DUE TO having already been justified by faith and where there is no appropriate manifestation of that love toward men your justification by faith PROFITS YOU NOTHING but is DEAD in the SPHERE OF HUMAN OBSERVATION. I might add it is also "dead" in regard to redeeming the time (Eph. 5:17) as that part of your life is LOST for God's glory and use here as well as reward there.

Now you're telling me what I believe! :BangHead: I do to believe it. I think, like the Catholic Church, you make an attempt to complicate the gospel rather than taking it as it is. In fact you can boil your application of the gospel to easy believism. Theoretically, by your view. I can claim salvation and murder 20 people and have no worry because I'm saved by my belief. I think this is a major issue for the Churches today. Which is why I make no distinction between having faith and acting on that faith. The actions are not the cause of my faith but the result of it. To not have one denies the other. You complicate things such as "human observation" etc... the lord neither the apostles ever make this distinction. Nor does James. However, you do. To validate you misapplication you must add such distinctions as human observation when Romans are clearly in view of the workings of Judaic law compar and contrasted against faith. Yet you deny this to apply your view. Which Goes to the complication of the Gospel. Eph 5:17 emphasise this view of enacting your faith rather than sitting around believing something and not acting. You again misapply the verse.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The salvation of the nation Israel is by the same covenant of grace that saves gentiles. God promised Abraham more than just that the promised seed in him would be a blessing to all other nations but a blessing to the nation of Israel that sprang from his loins as well and that has yet to be fulfilled. Just because the same blessings that accompany the covenant of grace are applied to Gentiles does not mean they are restricted to Gentiles nor does it mean that the specific blessings promised to Israel are given to the Gentiles.

So, you are suggesting. That this Kingdom of Heaven is not Christianity but ancient Judaism working better and that the "church age" is a paranthetical age really irrelevant to the overall history of mankind? That the fulfillment of all the OT prophets, Laws, etc is not accomplished in Christianity but some amalgamation of Judaism and messianicism? Sorry, I believe Christianity to be the very Kingdom of God which Christ came to establish as prophesied by Daniel. Its a shame you don't. Many attrocities were committed by people supporting Israel (for this very reason) no matter what they choose to do.

 

[DHK]

Thinkinstuff?
Was Lot saved? By whose standard of works? Yours? If so he would be in Hell today. But the Bible declares him a just man.
Was the thief on the cross saved? Why whose standard? Yours? If so he would be in Hell today? But Jesus said that he would be in paradise with him that very day. I would rather believe Jesus than you.

What saves? Works? Faith? Faith alone? Faith plus works?
If you pick the latter you have picked wrong. It is by faith alone. There have been many that have lived wanton lives of sin, but come to the end of their lives (like the thief on the cross) have turned to Christ. They have no works to show for it. They are saved by faith alone.

For a long time Nicodemus had no works to show for his faith. We can describe him a "secret believer." He would not speak up for Christ in the Sanhedrin. He kept quiet "for fear of the Jews." That is the reason he came to see Jesus "by night." What works? There were none. Not until much later, after the death of Christ, do we see him helping Joseph of Arimathea take the body of Jesus and wrap it in burial clothes. Secret believers don't have works. I am prone to think that there are many such believers in Islamic nations and in Communist nations.

Works do not save, nor do they have a part in salvation. If they did neither Lot or the thief on the cross were saved. But the testimony of Christ say that they were.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Now you're telling me what I believe! :BangHead: I do to believe it. I think, like the Catholic Church, you make an attempt to complicate the gospel rather than taking it as it is. In fact you can boil your application of the gospel to easy believism. Theoretically, by your view. I can claim salvation and murder 20 people and have no worry because I'm saved by my belief. I think this is a major issue for the Churches today. Which is why I make no distinction between having faith and acting on that faith. The actions are not the cause of my faith but the result of it. To not have one denies the other. You complicate things such as "human observation" etc... the lord neither the apostles ever make this distinction. Nor does James. However, you do. To validate you misapplication you must add such distinctions as human observation when Romans are clearly in view of the workings of Judaic law compar and contrasted against faith. Yet you deny this to apply your view. Which Goes to the complication of the Gospel. Eph 5:17 emphasise this view of enacting your faith rather than sitting around believing something and not acting. You again misapply the verse.

What a mess! Can't you see that Roman Catholocism, Seventh Day Adventism, etc. all define justification by faith as you do to be inseparable and therefore inclusive of works. Easy believism is the idea that you can have an historical faith in Christ and then live as you please. Sorry, but that is not what I am advocating. Just because I teach as does Paul that justificaiton by faith is "without works" does not mean that I believe justification is without regeneration or a new creature. Your attack on me is the same attack against Paul in Romans 3:8 and 6:1 because his opponents misunderstood his teaching just as you do mine.

Rom. 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Rom. 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Which is why I make no distinction between having faith and acting on that faith. The actions are not the cause of my faith but the result of it. To not have one denies the other. - thinkingstuff

First of all justification by faith is not equal to "having faith" as even demons have faith (James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."). So your initial definition is wrong!

Justification is not about having faith but it is about the OBJECT of faith IN CONTRAST to any ACTIONS produced by faith. It is the OBJECT of faith that justifies you not faith as faith is meaningless. It is the OBJECT of faith that justifies you not the ACTIONS of faith as that is "good" works.

It is the OBJECT of faith that justifies you because the object IS the provision of God that actually redeems you. It is the OBJECT of faith that justifies you because it is Christ's own personal faithfulness that propitiates the wrath of God against you by fully and completely satisfying by his own works both the righteous and penal demands of God's violated righteousness.

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

What makes faith justify YOU is what it is "IN" or the OBJECT it embraces. Justifying faith has for its sole OBJECT the SINLESS WORKS of Jesus Christ sacrificed upon Calvary by the shedding of His blood as the complete PROPITIATION/SATISFACTION for obedience to God's righteous demands FOR YOU or IN YOUR PLACE.

You cannot add your FAITHFULNESS to that object as the basis for justification before God without repudiating the SUFFICIENCY of the SATISFACTION of Christ's own works!!!!!!!! Those who assert justification by works are asserting their open denial of faith in the SUFFICIENCY of Christ "TO BE THE END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS" and thus repudiating Jesus Christ as their PROPITIATION but "going about to establish their OWN righteousness" by "good works."

Paul is not referring to Judaic law in Romans 4:1-6 by the term "works"! He does not deal with that until Romans 4:14-15. Paul is dealing with the common variety of "good works" that pertain "TO THE FLESH" (Rom. 4:1) and pertaining to the GENERIC rule in Romans 4:4 any more than James is referring to Judaic Law when he describes "works" as

James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Which is why I make no distinction between having faith and acting on that faith. The actions are not the cause of my faith but the result of it. To not have one denies the other. - thinkingstuff

Just as "having faith" no more justifies you than it does the demons, neither does "acting on that faith" justify you any more than it would the demons because justification is not faith or having faith or the actions of faith but in the OBJECT of faith. This is why justification by faith is always expressed with prepositional phrases beginning with the preposition "in" as it places the emphasis upon the object of the preposition "faith IN His blood" and "believing IN Christ" etc. Justifying faith has NOTHING to do with YOUR ACTIONS or YOUR FAITH but the proper object of faith. Since justification is nether in having faith or acting on that faith but in the object of faith then your conclusion is just as false "to not have one denies the other" as demons can have both and yet be UNJUSTIFIED before God and yet full of faith and works.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So, you are suggesting. That this Kingdom of Heaven is not Christianity but ancient Judaism working better and that the "church age" is a paranthetical age really irrelevant to the overall history of mankind? That the fulfillment of all the OT prophets, Laws, etc is not accomplished in Christianity but some amalgamation of Judaism and messianicism? Sorry, I believe Christianity to be the very Kingdom of God which Christ came to establish as prophesied by Daniel. Its a shame you don't. Many attrocities were committed by people supporting Israel (for this very reason) no matter what they choose to do.

Remember Jesus distinctly said that he was taking the kingdom away from its previous custodian and giving it to another people:

Mt. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Remember Jesus gives the keys of the kingdom to the plural "you" contextually identified as the kind of church that can admnister the keys as directed in Matthew 18:15-18:

15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The kingdom of God has always contained the saints of God or His servants whether in the Old or New Testament. The Church has its foundation and first members in the New Testament:

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

And it is the Apostles that are set FIRST in this church with the prophets SECOND:

I Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Therefore the kingdom of God is not the same as the church of God and salvation is not the same as the church of God. This truth destroys your view of the church as well as your argument about Israel. Just as the kingdom can be taken from Israel and given to the church WITHOUT EFFECTING THE SALVATION OF ANY CHILD OF GOD IN THE OLD OR NEW TESTAMENT so it can be restored to Israel without effectiong salvation or the status of the Church with God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Remember Jesus distinctly said that he was taking the kingdom away from its previous custodian and giving it to another people:

Mt. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Remember Jesus gives the keys of the kingdom to the plural "you" contextually identified as the kind of church that can admnister the keys as directed in Matthew 18:15-18:

15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The kingdom of God has always contained the saints of God or His servants whether in the Old or New Testament. The Church has its foundation and first members in the New Testament:

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

And it is the Apostles that are set FIRST in this church with the prophets SECOND:

I Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I don't understand how you can use these passages showing the pre-eminance of the church and then make this statement

Therefore the kingdom of God is not the same as the church of God and salvation is not the same as the church of God. This truth destroys your view of the church as well as your argument about Israel. Just as the kingdom can be taken from Israel and given to the church WITHOUT EFFECTING THE SALVATION OF ANY CHILD OF GOD IN THE OLD OR NEW TESTAMENT so it can be restored to Israel without effectiong salvation or the status of the Church with God.

It doesn't Jive with each other. Its not going to be given back to Israel. Israel will find its way into the Church. Big difference.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What a mess! Can't you see that Roman Catholocism, Seventh Day Adventism, etc. all define justification by faith as you do to be inseparable and therefore inclusive of works. Easy believism is the idea that you can have an historical faith in Christ and then live as you please. Sorry, but that is not what I am advocating. Just because I teach as does Paul that justificaiton by faith is "without works" does not mean that I believe justification is without regeneration or a new creature. Your attack on me is the same attack against Paul in Romans 3:8 and 6:1 because his opponents misunderstood his teaching just as you do mine.

I think you absent the purpose of regeneration and it does seem like that is exactly what you are advocating. And you misunderstand paul in Romans who compares contrast the Law of the covenant and faith of the believers.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think you absent the purpose of regeneration and it does seem like that is exactly what you are advocating. And you misunderstand paul in Romans who compares contrast the Law of the covenant and faith of the believers.

It is hard to understand what you are saying above because the way you word it. Regeneration NEVER produces sinless obedience in this life and so we are talking about LOWER levels of obedience that vary greatly from one saint to another as drastic in contrast as between Abraham and Lot.

God gives to each a measure of grace, a measure of faith and determines before hand that measure and use of each saint (Eph. 2:10b). In His house there are varities of vessels not all alike or on the same level or to be used the same.

No true child of God lives sinless (I Jn. 1:8-10) and no true child of God can get away with their sin (Heb. 12:5-10). There can be long periods of disobedience as in the case with David between the time of his adultery with Bathsheba and the birth of the fruit of his sin without any repentance until confronted finally by the prophet. As with the case of Lot, no man is capable of judging with finality the true state of a believer as the only record the Jews had of Lot for nearly 2000 years was a man whose life ends on the pages of holy writ in drunkenness and incest. Think of what all the Jewish sages must have said about Lot due to the lack of descriptive godliness found in Scriptures about him?

True children of God living in unrepentance or sin are miserable. Find a professed child of God living in sin that is happy and you have found what the writer of Hebrews calls a "bastard" or illigitimate child - not born of the Heavenly Father.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't understand how you can use these passages showing the pre-eminance of the church and then make this statement
It doesn't Jive with each other. Its not going to be given back to Israel. Israel will find its way into the Church. Big difference.

There is a visible expression of the kingdom of God that includes the keys of the kingdom as found in "the house of God." This was taken from Israel and given to the church and therefore the church is now "the house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15) with authority to ordain and administer the ordinances of God (I Tim. 3:1-13), that previously was the authority invested in the Old Testament house of God with its administrators (Deut. 12; Mt. 24:1-2).

The spiritual kingdom of God never was transferred from Israel to the church because it is not transferrable. God reigns within the new nature of born again children of God whether they are Jews or Gentiles and it has nothing to do with the church or with Israel. The spiritual kingdom was not confined to any nationality prior to Moses. The spiritual kingdom primarily existed among Israel between Moses and Malichi but not totally (Ninevah under Jonah's preaching).

The visible expression of the kingdom will be transferred back to Israel once again in the Millennial reign.

 

[Dr. Walter]

2 Pet. 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 ¶ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

He was "just" and "righteous" by imputation and he was "righteous" by regeneration but it is really hard to find any characteristic righteousness before, during or after this statement in his life.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is a visible expression of the kingdom of God that includes the keys of the kingdom as found in "the house of God." This was taken from Israel and given to the church and therefore the church is now "the house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15) with authority to ordain and administer the ordinances of God (I Tim. 3:1-13), that previously was the authority invested in the Old Testament house of God with its administrators (Deut. 12; Mt. 24:1-2).

The spiritual kingdom of God never was transferred from Israel to the church because it is not transferrable. God reigns within the new nature of born again children of God whether they are Jews or Gentiles and it has nothing to do with the church or with Israel. The spiritual kingdom was not confined to any nationality prior to Moses. The spiritual kingdom primarily existed among Israel between Moses and Malichi but not totally (Ninevah under Jonah's preaching).

The visible expression of the kingdom will be transferred back to Israel once again in the Millennial reign.

Sorry I don't buy it. Christianity is it. Judaism has come to its end as the perveyor of God's truth.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkinstuff?
Was Lot saved? By whose standard of works? Yours? If so he would be in Hell today. But the Bible declares him a just man.
Was the thief on the cross saved? Why whose standard? Yours? If so he would be in Hell today? But Jesus said that he would be in paradise with him that very day. I would rather believe Jesus than you.

What saves? Works? Faith? Faith alone? Faith plus works?
If you pick the latter you have picked wrong. It is by faith alone. There have been many that have lived wanton lives of sin, but come to the end of their lives (like the thief on the cross) have turned to Christ. They have no works to show for it. They are saved by faith alone.

For a long time Nicodemus had no works to show for his faith. We can describe him a "secret believer." He would not speak up for Christ in the Sanhedrin. He kept quiet "for fear of the Jews." That is the reason he came to see Jesus "by night." What works? There were none. Not until much later, after the death of Christ, do we see him helping Joseph of Arimathea take the body of Jesus and wrap it in burial clothes. Secret believers don't have works. I am prone to think that there are many such believers in Islamic nations and in Communist nations.

Works do not save, nor do they have a part in salvation. If they did neither Lot or the thief on the cross were saved. But the testimony of Christ say that they were.

First of all you keep talking about works and the entire conversation is lost on you. No one says works save. That is your invention not mine. I'm saying and have been consistent that faith without works are dead. Not that the works save but faith is expressed by deeds. You make the distinctions I don't and neither does scripture. 2 Pet calls lot just. What does this mean? that he was saved. The scriptures also call nimrod a great man? Does this mean he is saved. And I never said lot wasn't saved I said I had my doubts since both Moab and Ammon came from him and they have worked against Israel from the begining.
I think you need to get with what is being said rather than looking for an opportunity to preach. After all it was you who broke down the reason for the meassage board which was to discuss in a forum theology. Yet you and others tend to drop the discussion aspect and turn it into sanctimonious soap box preaching. If someone has a differeing opinion. first correctly identify what is wrong with it on the merits of what it actually says. Do not re-define the argument to one your more familiar with or one you wish to discuss. Then provide your counter argument with supporting information .

 

[Dr. Walter]

Sorry I don't buy it. Christianity is it. Judaism has come to its end as the perveyor of God's truth.

Friend it is not up for sale - I bought the truth by hard word and the Lord commands to not sell it at any price.

 

[Dr. Walter]

First of all you keep talking about works and the entire conversation is lost on you. No one says works save. That is your invention not mine. I'm saying and have been consistent that faith without works are dead. Not that the works save but faith is expressed by deeds. You make the distinctions I don't and neither does scripture. 2 Pet calls lot just. What does this mean? that he was saved. The scriptures also call nimrod a great man? Does this mean he is saved. And I never said lot wasn't saved I said I had my doubts since both Moab and Ammon came from him and they have worked against Israel from the begining.
I think you need to get with what is being said rather than looking for an opportunity to preach. After all it was you who broke down the reason for the meassage board which was to discuss in a forum theology. Yet you and others tend to drop the discussion aspect and turn it into sanctimonious soap box preaching. If someone has a differeing opinion. first correctly identify what is wrong with it on the merits of what it actually says. Do not re-define the argument to one your more familiar with or one you wish to discuss. Then provide your counter argument with supporting information .

DHK has not changed the argument at all. You have! First you admit that nobody says that works save but then you present an argument that says without works nobody can be saved. You say, "faith is expressed by works" but can works misrepresent someone's actual faith???? Can truly saved people produce bad works over a period of time? Do these works simply deny faith in the sphere of human observation or do they deny the presence of faith altogether? Your argument is from James 2 where it is the sphere of human observance that is characterized in nearly every verse "if a man say...to me" or "shew me" or "shew you" or "Do YOU SEE how a man..." However, Romans 4 right at the get go tells you Paul is speaking of justification "before God." Only by confusing one with the other do you have any case to argue.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

DHK has not changed the argument at all. You have! First you admit that nobody says that works save but then you present an argument that says without works nobody can be saved. You say, "faith is expressed by works" but can works misrepresent someone's actual faith???? Can truly saved people produce bad works over a period of time? Do these works simply deny faith in the sphere of human observation or do they deny the presence of faith altogether? Your argument is from James 2 where it is the sphere of human observance that is characterized in nearly every verse "if a man say...to me" or "shew me" or "shew you" or "Do YOU SEE how a man..." However, Romans 4 right at the get go tells you Paul is speaking of justification "before God." Only by confusing one with the other do you have any case to argue.

See you don't even articulate what it is being said. Lets look

First you admit that nobody says that works save but then you present an argument that says without works nobody can be saved

Wrong. Works do not save. I've said that time and again. I've also said works are the expression of faith. You are stuck in the single point and time which you believed on Jesus. I'm speaking of beyond that time. You're stuck with a person becoming regenerate. I'm speaking after regeneration has occured. Big difference. And a different situation. You keep wanting to talk about that one point and time. I'm discussing once you are firmly in the salvation camp. You're still talking about getting there to begin with.

can works misrepresent someone's actual faith????

Sure, but thats up to God to decide. I just know as it is stated in scripture if your not expressing your faith your faith isn't faith its a dead belief.

Do these works simply deny faith in the sphere of human observation

You make the distinction of human observation. Scripture does not. James never once uses the terms Human Observation nor does he argue from it.

you present an argument that says without works nobody can be saved

in fact I do not. You put that on me. I'm saying if your saved there is the natural bareing of fruit. And that; try to stay up to speed, since you claimed to have taught from Blackaby's experiencing God, I emphasise point 3 which is

God invites you to become involved with Him in His work

. Thus faith is expressed by this working in tandum with God. This is what God wants for each of his believers. You would say "nope can't happen until you're in heaven". I disagree. God wants this co-operation through out our life in that we work towards the salvation of other and our own sanctification. You however, deny this in favor of your soteriology where no one does anything once saved and God has no expectation on believers to use their freedom given them by him and his empowing holy spirit to work on their sanctification, glorification of God, and salvation of others.
I think if you could thow out the book of James you would. I call that easy believism. What about laying down your life? What about the Joint sufferings of Christ? You miss out on all this aspect of the gospel and in fact ignore it that we are called to such things.
Let me tell you about a good and horrible thing in China I heard on NPR a chinese woman was saying that Christian Churches of the West are wealthy because God blesses them. So she wants to worship God so that he can bless her monitarily with wealth. Is that really what our churches teaches as the gospel? What about when Jesus Christ calls us to suffer? This is conviently ignored.

 

[DHK]

First of all you keep talking about works and the entire conversation is lost on you. No one says works save.

Yes there are a few that say works save. Perhaps you are one of them. Anyone who says that faith plus visible works save is still saying works save. The Bible teaches that salvation is by faith and faith alone. No works are involved whatsoever. Not the works of the law; not good works; not any works.

That is your invention not mine. I'm saying and have been consistent that faith without works are dead.

And who are you to make that judgment call? Only God knows the heart.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" The answer is "only God." That eliminates you.

Not that the works save but faith is expressed by deeds.

What deeds? How many? By whose standard? Yours? Are you the one that set the bar? See-you have a very subjective "salvation" when you set yourself up as a god judging who is saved and who is not as soon as works enter into the equation. A man is saved by faith and faith alone. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit will change the person's life so that the fruit of his life will bring forth works. But we don't know what fruit, how much, at what rate it grows, etc. Everyone is different.

You make the distinctions I don't and neither does scripture. 2 Pet calls lot just. What does this mean? that he was saved.

Read the passage. Yes, it means he was just as saved as Abraham. He believed God and righteousness was imputed unto him. That is why salvation has always been by faith and faith alone. Lot has been an excellent example of this.

The scriptures also call nimrod a great man? Does this mean he is saved. And I never said lot wasn't saved I said I had my doubts since both Moab and Ammon came from him and they have worked against Israel from the begining.

The offspring have nothing to do with the man. Adam was created by God in God's own image. One of Adam's own children didn't turn out too good did he? Your argument is fallacious. The word "great" is used in many contexts. The unicorn was a "great" animal too. Was it saved?

I think you need to get with what is being said rather than looking for an opportunity to preach.

Your judgement for motive is uncalled for. If this is all that you can add to a debate then maybe you should stop.

After all it was you who broke down the reason for the meassage board which was to discuss in a forum theology. Yet you and others tend to drop the discussion aspect and turn it into sanctimonious soap box preaching.

These are serious false accusations. I hope you have evidence after having posted them.

If someone has a differeing opinion. first correctly identify what is wrong with it on the merits of what it actually says. Do not re-define the argument to one your more familiar with or one you wish to discuss. Then provide your counter argument with supporting information .

I have consistently stated my position--salvation is by faith and faith alone--and consistently shown yours and others--that they are false. I have provided Scripture as my basis. This is a debate forum. What is wrong in your presentation is that you consistently go against Scripture. I point that out and you are blind to it. There is not much more that I can do.