The catholic church recants!

[Thinkingstuff]

However, Peter does not merely say he was "just" but in addition describes his "soul" as "RIGHTEOUS" and that has nothing to do with EXTERNALS. Only God can see the soul.

7 ¶ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations,

Note it doesn't tell of his final outcome. But also note it talks about him being vexed in Sodom. Kind of letting you view it both ways.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I find it peachy and sanctimonious. Because I had already said works do not save!

You are playing a game of semantics and both DHK and I can clearly see that. How? Here is how - You state that a man is justified by faith alone without works but then proceed to deny that this "faith" can be separated from "works" which in essence makes it a FAITH WORKS inseparable union that we are justified by. Both DHK and I can clearly see that you are preaching justification by works just as Rome includes works in grace you include works in faith - no difference when it comes to the bottom line.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It really is the cutting edge of the spiritual battle as salvation or the lack of it determines the eternal destiny of all men. From the very beginning it has been either the "way of Cain" or the way of Abel. Jesus claimed on TWO ways (Mt. 7:13-14). The Pauline epistles give only TWO contrasting ways of justification, ways of salvation (works versus grace, faith versus law; faith versus works, grace versus law). THERE IS NO MIDDLE FENCE or third, fourth or fifth, etc. alternatives.

When you say that works are inseparable from faith you misrepresent the WHOLE truth of Scripture by giving a HALF truth as the whole truth.

Justifying faith exists WITHIN the mind and heart of the saint, in their position before God, in his sight, AT ALL TIMES not merely when they are expressing it in "good" works but in "bad" works as well. However, in the sphere of human observation which James is clearly discussing ("a man may say TO ME" "shew ME" "shew YOU" "Can YOU SEE" etc.) faith is dead when there is no visible expression of it by works.

That "dead" expression cannot justify anyone before God or man and therefore it cannot save anyone. James is exhorting BELIEVERS to demonstrate what does justify them and saves them in a LIVING VISIBLE manner by their works.

From my perspective you water down faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Note it doesn't tell of his final outcome. But also note it talks about him being vexed in Sodom. Kind of letting you view it both ways.

So, you admit he was a "righteous" man with a "righteous soul" and God delivered what God says is a "godly" man but due to WORKS his final outcome may differ than what you admit is his present state of salvation???

 

[Dr. Walter]

From my perspective you water down faith.

It is because I deal with what justifies a person first before I deal with what IMPERFECTLY manifests sanctification of a person second whereas you confuse the two. The Bible does not confuse the two.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are playing a game of semantics and both DHK and I can clearly see that. How? Here is how - You state that a man is justified by faith alone without works but then proceed to deny that this "faith" can be separated from "works" which in essence makes it a FAITH WORKS inseparable union that we are justified by. Both DHK and I can clearly see that you are preaching justification by works just as Rome includes works in grace you include works in faith - no difference when it comes to the bottom line.

I'm not. Faith is faith. Salvation is Salvation. Two different words two different meanings and there is the time line to consider. the point of salvation and after the point of salvation. It you who mince words. God entirely of his own accord gets me to the point of salvation and give me faith AT THAT POINT. Before that I have no Faith. Therefore, faith and my life with Christ lead to a natural result of faith. The good work God has for me as Blackaby has said in his point 3. You're still back there with the point of salvation. I'm ahead of you in discouse in living in salvation. Paul says he strives! I'm talking about sanctification and your stuck in God still getting you till salvation. This is the point of disagreement. You have the wrong bottom line.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is because I deal with what justifies a person first before I deal with what IMPERFECTLY manifests sanctification of a person second whereas you confuse the two. The Bible does not confuse the two.

No it doesn't. Though you've added extra steps. I have not.

 

[DHK]

Sigh. If you read the thread you would see that I said I wasn't sure of Lots salvation 2 peter said he was just I'm just not sure it means just in salvation or not having taken part of the evil of Sodom. You will find I answer this way because both Moab and Ammonites come from him. It was already said. and its a non sequitur because I have already said works do not save which leads me to this next very important point.

However we can be sure of it because of what the Word of God says. That is not non sequitor, it is "Thus saith the Lord." Read the passage. What does it say, not: here is what I think but this is what happened. That is just a worldly man's philosophy speaking that is not based on God's Word.

Since I have already made it clear I do not believe works save when you post (post 47 btw) this statement

Your statements are filled with hypocrisy.
Here is how Dr. Walter answered you in post #49

DHK has not changed the argument at all. You have! First you admit that nobody says that works save but then you present an argument that says without works nobody can be saved. You say, "faith is expressed by works" but can works misrepresent someone's actual faith????

He also saw that you were putting forth a theology that one cannot be saved without works. It was plain to him and plain to me. There was no "non sequitor" involved here.

I find it peachy and sanctimonious. Because I had already said works do not save! And the topic I was on with Dr. Walter was about Israel in eschetology which had very little to do with this statement after I already Identified works do not save.

No, you hadn't. Not even Dr. Walter would admit to that. You would have to be the judge of one's works. To you it is faith plus works--working in cooperation with God. Salvation is not that way. I too have been reading all the posts. Don't try to push all this conversation over to eschatology. It wasn't.

BTW you haven't touched a nerve with me. However, you've slandered me on several occassions. You called me a liar and a catholic. I've given you my church and if you like to come for a visit you are welcome. I on the other hand present an opinion of how you post. So tell me which is slander?

You are wrong here. On more than one occasion I have defended you as a Baptist putting forth the view of a Catholic. I know that you are a Baptist searching for answers for your relatives. You are putting forth the views of a Catholic much of the time. It is like playing the devil's advocate. However confusing as that may be, one doesn't know when you are speaking "as a Catholic," or "as a Baptist," so we don't really know what you believe. That being said, if you state erroneous doctrine (whether it be your own or that of your relative's), I will call it for what it is--heresy. If that is what your relatives believe then so be it. Find a way to tell them what they believe is wrong.

Please take note:
For non-Baptists, if you wish to remain in non-Baptist forums, there are twenty of them.
Five of them are debate forums.
15 of them are discussion forums where you can discuss everything from sports, humor, and the weather. If you don't like the debate then try something more tame.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So, you admit he was a "righteous" man with a "righteous soul" and God delivered what God says is a "godly" man but due to WORKS his final outcome may differ than what you admit is his present state of salvation???

I don't think I'm defining the words the same way you are. You want me to answer based on your definition rather than mine. I won't. First clarify what you think it is saying. The bible calls David a great man as does it call nimrod are they both saved? No.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thinkingstuff, You agree with me that a person cannot go from regenerate to unregenerate to regenerate OR go from lost to save to lost to saved OR from belief in Christ to unbelief in Christ to Unbelief in Christ when a beleiver goes from "good" to "bad" works but nevertheless you assert that works is INSEPARABLE from faith!!!

Either your logic is warped or you do not understand what you are agreeing with!!!!

I will assume you do not understand what you are agreeing with. If works are inseparable from faith in Christ (as this is what justified a man) as you demand, then is faith existent within a man when he is either not manifesting any good works or is sinning???? OR has he returned to an unjustified state in unbelief?

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't think I'm defining the words the same way you are. You want me to answer based on your definition rather than mine. I won't. First clarify what you think it is saying. The bible calls David a great man as does it call nimrod are they both saved? No.

May I ask you what the term "great" has to do with the salvation of any man whether Nimrod or David????????

I could care less what your definition may or may not be. It is Peter who says he was a "just" man and it was Peter who said he had a "righteous soul" and it was Peter who said he was a "righteous man" and it was Peter who said that he was the "godly" man that God delivered!

Peter spoke under inspiration by God and so it is God who is calling Lot a "just" man and it is God who is saying Lot had a "righteous" soul and it is God that says he was a "righteous" man and it was God who not only said but delivered Lot as a "godly" man. HOW MANY DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS AND APPLICATIONS DOES GOD HAVE FOR THESE TERMS? Does God apply them to lost human beings?????

Your simply caught in your error and your too proud to simply admit you are wrong so you now have to accuse God of misapplying terms that are used by God to distinguish the lost from the saved and try to escape such applications by resorting to a term "great" that nowhere is used to distinguish the lost from the saved.

If you cannot discuss the topic honestly just drop it and move on.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

However we can be sure of it because of what the Word of God says. That is not non sequitor, it is "Thus saith the Lord." Read the passage. What does it say, not: here is what I think but this is what happened. That is just a worldly man's philosophy speaking that is not based on God's Word.

Keep in mind you accused me of slandering you. However, if you think so. [Personal attack edited]

Your statements are filled with hypocrisy.
Here is how Dr. Walter answered you in post #49

And again what does that have to do with salvation not by works? It has nothing to do with your statement. In post 47. It was an Eschatology discussion. Once again keep in mind it is you who accused me of slander.

OnceHe also saw that you were putting forth a theology that one cannot be saved without works. It was plain to him and plain to me. There was no "non sequitor" involved here.

I never said you must be saved by works. That is just not true.

No, you hadn't. Not even Dr. Walter would admit to that. You would have to be the judge of one's works.

Right and I don't judge others works.

To you it is faith plus works--working in cooperation with God

.Yes it is but it doesn't gain salvation its an expression of faith gained at Salvation.

You and I too have been reading all the posts. Don't try to push all this conversation over to eschatology.

I didn't remotely even say that. I said the current topic was eschatology and that I had already explained my point of view you keep asking about its like a broken record.

You are wrong here. On more than one occasion I have defended you as a Baptist putting forth the view of a Catholic

Generally, I am. And I appreciate that you did. However, as you know you have said I was a secret Catholic have you not?

I know that you are a Baptist searching for answers for your relatives.

I am and I've given them a good run. My brother for instance is coming home to the Lord!

You are putting forth the views of a Catholic much of the time.

This is true and I usually say at some point that I am. And I give it the best shot I can. And some times I do it just to ruffle feathers.

It is like playing the devil's advocate.

Yes. There are several times I was going to take the athiest position.

However confusing as that may be, one doesn't know when you are speaking "as a Catholic," or "as a Baptist," so we don't really know what you believe.

You got a point. I will try to make it more clear.

That being said, if you state erroneous doctrine (whether it be your own or that of your relative's), I will call it for what it is--heresy.

Fine call the doctrine heresy don't call me a heretic.

If that is what your relatives believe then so be it.

You haven't even scratched the surface of what they believe.

Find a way to tell them what they believe is wrong.

I do. All the time.

Please take note:
For non-Baptists, if you wish to remain in non-Baptist forums, there are twenty of them.

When I'm in the baptist part of this forum I stay primarily to my baptist beliefs unless it has to do with creation specifically young earth.

Five of them are debate forums.

Is this not a debate forum?

15 of them are discussion forums where you can discuss everything from sports, humor, and the weather. If you don't like the debate then try something more tame.

I post there as well some times and the Hobby section because I like Dr. Who.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

May I ask you what the term "great" has to do with the salvation of any man whether Nimrod or David????????

I could care less what your definition may or may not be. It is Peter who says he was a "just" man and it was Peter who said he had a "righteous soul" and it was Peter who said he was a "righteous man" and it was Peter who said that he was the "godly" man that God delivered!

Peter spoke under inspiration by God and so it is God who is calling Lot a "just" man and it is God who is saying Lot had a "righteous" soul and it is God that says he was a "righteous" man and it was God who not only said but delivered Lot as a "godly" man. HOW MANY DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS AND APPLICATIONS DOES GOD HAVE FOR THESE TERMS? Does God apply them to lost human beings?????

Your simply caught in your error and your too proud to simply admit you are wrong so you now have to accuse God of misapplying terms that are used by God to distinguish the lost from the saved and try to escape such applications by resorting to a term "great" that nowhere is used to distinguish the lost from the saved.

If you cannot discuss the topic honestly just drop it and move on.

Your the one trying to "trap me" into saying something I don't believe. I think just is the point at which Lot was acting just was he saved? I have no idea was Gideon saved? It makes you wonder huh?

 

[Dr. Walter]

So you admit there is a point of salvation and there is a point after salvation!!!! You admit that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone period - without works - but where? At the point of salvation or AFTER the point of salvation?????

You use UNBIBLICAL terminology to describe the "point" versus "after the point" when I use Biblcal terminology "regeneration" "justification" for what you call "the point" of salvation and I use biblical terminology "sanctification" and "unto good works" for what you call "after the point of salvation". You admit they are distinctly different but when I say they are and use Biblical terms you claim I am ADDED distinctions to God's Word!!!!

"you've added extra steps. I have not" - Thinkingstuff

Faith is faith but not all faith is justifing faith as that is determined soley by the object of faith not the nature of faith. Faith is faith and demons have faith in regard to the nature of faith but they do not have the object of faith.

Good works MAY manifest justifying faith and MAY NOT (Mt. 7:21-23). Bad words do not deny justifying faith resides in a believer when they are doing bad works because they do not go from beleif while doing good works to unbelief while doing bad works. This is the logic of your demand that GOOD works and faith are inseparable. IF they are inseparable then it is impossible to do bad works without moving from faith to unbelief.

The truth is that only in the SPHERE OF HUMAN OBSERVATION is faith judged to be dead and not living when EVIL works are present. Only in the SPHERE OF HUMAN OBSERVATION is faith LIVING when GOOD works are present because in God's sight his saints do no jump back and forth from justification by faith to unjustificaiton by unbelief.

Only God can show your blind mind the self-contradiction of your position. You are teaching salvation by works just like Rome as you use the same heresy that defines grace to includes works when you demand faith includes works - same error. Same complete misrepresentation of God's Word that distinguishes between justification by faith and sanctification by faith a distinction that even you make with UNBIBLICAL terms "point" of salvation versus the "AFTER the point of salvation."

I'm not. Faith is faith. Salvation is Salvation. Two different words two different meanings and there is the time line to consider. the point of salvation and after the point of salvation. It you who mince words. God entirely of his own accord gets me to the point of salvation and give me faith AT THAT POINT. Before that I have no Faith. Therefore, faith and my life with Christ lead to a natural result of faith. The good work God has for me as Blackaby has said in his point 3. You're still back there with the point of salvation. I'm ahead of you in discouse in living in salvation. Paul says he strives! I'm talking about sanctification and your stuck in God still getting you till salvation. This is the point of disagreement. You have the wrong bottom line.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your the one trying to "trap me" into saying something I don't believe. I think just is the point at which Lot was acting just was he saved? I have no idea was Gideon saved? It makes you wonder huh?

You don't care about the truth of God's word and it is self-evident from your foolish and silly responses. Have your ever read Hebrews 11 and the hall way of Faith? Is Gideon's name recorded there?

Heb. 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Your arguments this far are about as valid as if you argued that the "Gideon" of Hebrews 11:32 must be another Gideon that the one in Judges!! Why don't you make that arguement? Your argument over the use of "great" is no better! Your argument against Peter's inspired use of terms that the Bible consistently uses to distinguish the lost from the saved is no better.

[personal attack removed]

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You don't care about the truth of God's word and it is self-evident from your foolish and silly responses. Have your ever read Hebrews 11 and the hall way of Faith? Is Gideon's name recorded there?

Heb. 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Your arguments this far are about as valid as if you argued that the "Gideon" of Hebrews 11:32 must be another Gideon that the one in Judges!! Why don't you make that arguement? Your argument over the use of "great" is no better! Your argument against Peter's inspired use of terms that the Bible consistently uses to distinguish the lost from the saved is no better.

As far as I am concerned, You don't believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and you are an enemy of Christ and the cross and will remain that way until God changes your mind.

Didn't he have idols in the end? ...[edited] Even though I disagree with some of the things you say I've never accused you of being the enemy of the gospel of Christ....[edited]
fortunatley I believe in the Gospel, grace, mercy, and completed work of christ that even if I make certain errors Christ is beyond that and I can rest assured in his hands of love. ...
[edited]

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So you admit there is a point of salvation and there is a point after salvation!!!!

yes I do.

You admit that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone period - without works - but where? At the point of salvation or AFTER the point of salvation?????

You're confusing yourself.

You use UNBIBLICAL terminology to describe the "point" versus "after the point" when I use Biblcal terminology "regeneration" "justification" for what you call "the point" of salvation and I use biblical terminology "sanctification" and "unto good works" for what you call "after the point of salvation". You admit they are distinctly different but when I say they are and use Biblical terms you claim I am ADDED distinctions to God's Word!!!!

Big whoop! I say things as I understand them I don't redefine biblical words into modern meanings and say its biblical. And yes I did. Because you did.

Faith is faith but not all faith is justifing faith as that is determined soley by the object of faith not the nature of faith. Faith is faith and demons have faith in regard to the nature of faith but they do not have the object of faith.

See you have to use adjective to explain rather than just the word. Doesn't that show you something?

Good works MAY manifest justifying faith and MAY NOT (Mt. 7:21-23). Bad words do not deny justifying faith resides in a believer when they are doing bad works because they do not go from beleif while doing good works to unbelief while doing bad works. This is the logic of your demand that GOOD works and faith are inseparable. IF they are inseparable then it is impossible to do bad works without moving from faith to unbelief.

Again you confuse yourself. Earth wind and fire put it finely when he told me

Works are only relevant to your faith after your saved & then they take on an extension of your faith.....but you must have faith 1st prior to

The truth is that only in the SPHERE OF HUMAN OBSERVATION is faith judged to be dead and not living when EVIL works are present. Only in the SPHERE OF HUMAN OBSERVATION is faith LIVING when GOOD works are present because in God's sight his saints do no jump back and forth from justification by faith to unjustificaiton by unbelief.

exactly my point adding to james.

Only God can show your blind mind the self-contradiction of your position.

Good, just insult me won't you, you white washed sepluchar. See I can use biblical terms too.

You are teaching salvation by works just like Rome as you use the same heresy that defines grace to includes works when you demand faith includes works - same error.

Nope wrong again.

Same complete misrepresentation of God's Word that distinguishes between justification by faith and sanctification by faith a distinction that even you make with UNBIBLICAL terms "point" of salvation versus the "AFTER the point of salvation."

Again big whoop on using words as I understand them at least I'm honest enough. to use it in the context as it is meant not redefined a term used in the bible into a context you want it to mean and then apply it contrary to its context.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Didn't he have idols in the end?

Don't YOU have sin to the end (I Jn. 1:8-10) or is his sin worse than your sin to the end?????????? Your very argument demands you believe in salvation by works or you would not even say this!

[edited personal attack] And by their fruits you shall know them.

Jesus used the same kind of language to those who believe error (edit) (Mt. 23). Paul uses the same language in Galatians to those who believe error (edit) ("accursed"). The difference between Christ, Paul, Dr. Walter and the crusaders is we stop with words but the crusaders took it to actions. We condemn heresies and expose heretics but they tortured and killed them.

Even though I disagree with some of the things you say I've never accused you of being the enemy of the gospel of Christ. You've shown yourself to be an elitist and are following the path of all such groups. fortunatley I believe in the Gospel, grace, mercy, and completed work of christ that even if I make certain errors Christ is beyond that and I can rest assured in his hands of love. [edited]

[personal attack edited] It was Paul who charged those teaching the very same doctrine you are teaching:

"Let them be accursed....O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you...Christ is become of no effect unto you"

If the shoe fits then that is the way it is [personal attack edited]

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Didn't he have idols in the end? Look Dr. Walter go ahead but on your chain mail and tabard with a big read cross and chop my head off. What makes you any better than the crusaders or the inquisitors using such inflamitory language? I venture nothing. And by their fruits you shall know them. Even though I disagree with some of the things you say I've never accused you of being the enemy of the gospel of Christ. You've shown yourself to be an elitist and are following the path of all such groups. fortunatley I believe in the Gospel, grace, mercy, and completed work of christ that even if I make certain errors Christ is beyond that and I can rest assured in his hands of love. By Jove man! I'm glad I can fall at the feet of the savior than your pharisee type judgement.

Moderator...... Don't you think you should close this down considering what just happened? Enough is Enough.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

[edited] It was Paul who charged those teaching the very same doctrine you are teaching:

"Let them be accursed....O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you...Christ is become of no effect unto you"

If the shoe fits then that is the way it is [edited]

First of all Paul wasn't dealing with people that believed exactly as I do when he used those words and the very fact that you think so shows you how little you understand the time period. That is what happens when you make up a history from a fantasy and apply to your reality. He was speaking of the Judiazers. I am not one. [personal attack edited]