The Catholic Church

[The Biblicist]

I never said that .

Read your own words:

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
However, I want to point out an error in your review of 1 Cor 15 Certainly everyone will be raised with their immortal bodies but read and re-read that passage and you'll find nothing about "in the air" You added that to the passage. You've combined 1 thes 4 and made one new verse..

It is the above words and complete distortion of what I said that I responded to and nothing you have said addresses that complete distortion of my words - Nothing!

You charged me with making 1 Cor. 15:51-57 read "in the air" when in fact 1 Cor. 15:51-57 has NOTING TO DO WITH THE LOST and their resurrected body just as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LOST and their resurrected body but with the saved. I gave both references and never stated that "in the air" came from 1 Cor. 15.

Again, Finally, that is proof their destination was already settled and determined BEFORE they stand before the Lord in regard to their "works" and that the rewards for their works have nothing to do with determining heaven or hell just and therefore the judgement of their works has nothing to do with determining heaven or hell as the judgement of God upon Christ is FINISHED and has already determined their destination (Jn. 5:24).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Read your own words:

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
However, I want to point out an error in your review of 1 Cor 15 Certainly everyone will be raised with their immortal bodies but read and re-read that passage and you'll find nothing about "in the air" You added that to the passage. You've combined 1 thes 4 and made one new verse..

It is the above words and complete distortion of what I said that I responded to and nothing you have said addresses that complete distortion of my words - Nothing!

You charged me with making 1 Cor. 15:51-57 read "in the air" when in fact 1 Cor. 15:51-57 has NOTING TO DO WITH THE LOST and their resurrected body just as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LOST and their resurrected body but with the saved. I gave both references and never stated that "in the air" came from 1 Cor. 15.

Again, Finally, that is proof their destination was already settled and determined BEFORE they stand before the Lord in regard to their "works" and that the rewards for their works have nothing to do with determining heaven or hell just and therefore the judgement of their works has nothing to do with determining heaven or hell as the judgement of God upon Christ is FINISHED and has already determined their destination (Jn. 5:24).

You miss applied the quote. What did I actually say?

never said that there were two resurrections of the righteous

That was in specific referrence to your comment.

There are not TWO different resurrections of the RIGHTEOUS but only ONE and the ONE in 1 Cor. 15:51-57 is the SAME ONE in 1 Thes. 1:14-17.

Secondly, I don't think I intended to distort what you said because you said

The glorification of the body occurs at the resurrection from the grave and reception of the living to Christ "in the air" before He comes to earth

It certainly seemed that was your intention.

And finally Matthew 25 is clear. Jesus words are clear your are RJP'ing as you've called it as can clearly be seen in this post of yours

Again, Finally, that is proof their destination was already settled and determined BEFORE they stand before the Lord in regard to their "works" and that the rewards for their works have nothing to do with determining heaven or hell just and therefore the judgement of their works has nothing to do with determining heaven or hell as the judgement of God upon Christ is FINISHED and has already determined their destination (Jn. 5:24).

Where Jn 5:24 in no way relates to Matthew 25. Lets look at some verses that do relate to John 5:24 and is by the same author in the same book which is better context than running and Jumping from matthew to john for instance

If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples

and

There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day

and

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

It is clear that one who rejects Jesus rejects his word and does not do them. For context within the Gospel of Matthew which Matthew 25 is a part it says

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock

 

[The Biblicist]

You miss applied the quote.

Give us break, for pete's sake! Look at what you said and stop spinning both your words and my words.

Look at your charge!!!!

Certainly everyone will be raised with their immortal bodies but read and re-read that passage and you'll find nothing about "in the air" You added that to the passage. You've combined 1 thes 4 and made one new verse

That charge is an outright lie and you know it and so does everyone on this forum who is capable of reading.

I did no such thing as you charged. Your charge is that I invented a new verse by trying to combine 1 Corinthian passage with 1 Thessalonian passage thus ADDING to the I Corinthians passage "in the air."

If you don't have enough moral integrity to admit to what you are clearly saying then pleeeeeeease don't further this conversation and waste my time.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Give us break, for pete's sake! Look at what you said and stop spinning both your words and my words.

Look at your charge!!!!

Certainly everyone will be raised with their immortal bodies but read and re-read that passage and you'll find nothing about "in the air" You added that to the passage. You've combined 1 thes 4 and made one new verse

How was I to understand this statement of yours?

The glorification of the body occurs at the resurrection from the grave and reception of the living to Christ "in the air" before He comes to earth

The way I understood you to mean was that both verse supported this statement whereas 1 verse supports that statement and the other verse also speaks of the resurrection. We can debate whether its the same resurrection or not but certainly that is how you read to me which would mean two verses joined not initially joined.

That charge is an outright lie and you know it and so does everyone on this forum who is capable of reading.

You may have meant it to mean that you believe both verses support this position of your however you cannot take the moral high ground here. Because you did intentionally miss apply what I said when you took a half of a sentence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
I never said that .

and applied it to your comment

Read your own words:

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
However, I want to point out an error in your review of 1 Cor 15 Certainly everyone will be raised with their immortal bodies but read and re-read that passage and you'll find nothing about "in the air" You added that to the passage. You've combined 1 thes 4 and made one new verse..

It is the above words and complete distortion of what I said that I responded to and nothing you have said addresses that complete distortion of my words - Nothing!

when I actually said

I never said that there were two resurrections of the righteous

Applied to your statement

There are not TWO different resurrections of the RIGHTEOUS but only ONE and the ONE in 1 Cor. 15:51-57 is the SAME ONE in 1 Thes. 1:14-17.

If you don't have enough moral integrity to admit to what you are clearly saying then pleeeeeeease don't further this conversation and waste my time

I have the moral integrity to admit I may have misunderstood you espcially when you JPS two books to support a singular view and make both the same context when both arn't exactly. Yet you refuse to see your hypocracy when you take a partial statement of mine and miss apply it to an entirely different context. So as you say Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese. be honest and don't waste our time.

 

[The Biblicist]

How was I to understand this statement of yours? The way I understood you to mean was that both verse supported this statement whereas 1 verse supports that statement and the other verse also speaks of the resurrection. We can debate whether its the same resurrection or not but certainly that is how you read to me which would mean two verses joined not initially joined.

Both 1 Corithians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 are speaking explicitly and only of the resurrection of the righteous alone - just read it.

There is not one word about the resurrection of the wicked in either of these scriptures. NOt one Word!

The transformation of the body of the saved person in 1 Cor. 15:51 in a twinkling of an eye occurs AFTER the resurrection of the righteous departed that Jesus brings with him in 1 Thes. 4:14-17.

This proves that both the resurrection of the righteous dead and the transformation of living saved occurs while Christ is still "IN THE CLOUDS" and thus the living are transformed and "caught up to meet" him "IN THE AIR."

The wicked are not resurrected and caught to meet Christ "in the clouds" or "in the air" - There is no verse in the Bible that teaches the wicked participate in this "in the clouds" and "in the air" resurrection/transformation event.

Paul gives a precise order. The righteous departed are resurrected and received back into the clouds BEFORE the righteous living are transformed and "caught up in the clouds" to be WITH THEM "in the air."

Hence, 1 Cor. 15:51-57 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 speak of the SAME EVENT - the resurrection of the righteous and transformation of the righteous living BOTH returning to Christ while "in the clouds" and thus caught up "in the air" because that is where the clouds exist!

The wicked are not resurrected "First" and the righteous living are not transformed and caught up to meet Christ "FIRST."

There can be not THREE "first" resurrection orders. This is not a simeltaneous resurrection of righteous and wicked. These texts deny that all the dead are raised together at once These texts deny the wicked are raised with the righteous dead or that the righteous living are transformed BEFORE the righteous dead are resurrected.

Sorry, but those are the facts. The righteous are resurrected and raptured "caught up in the clouds" and "in the air" BEFORE the wicked are raised. There is a resurrection order:

1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

 

[Yeshua1]

there will be ONE judgement for the saints, that unto good works and eternal loss/rewards, NOT for seeing if going to heaven otr not

One judgement for lost, ALL unsaved go there!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

there will be ONE judgement for the saints, that unto good works and eternal loss/rewards, NOT for seeing if going to heaven otr not

One judgement for lost, ALL unsaved go there!

Catholics actually believe that there is a Particular Judgement which determines where each person goes IE heaven or hell. That happens at the point of death. Catholics believe that there is a general judgement where everyone is judged those hell bound and those going to heaven where

The Roman Catechism thus explains why, besides the particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world: "The first reason is founded on the circumstances that most augment the rewards or aggravate the punishments of the dead. Those who depart this life sometimes leave behind them children who imitate the conduct of their parents, descendants, followers; and others who adhere to and advocate the example, the language, the conduct of those on whom they depend, and whose example they follow; and as the good or bad influence or example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with this world; justice demands that, in order to form a proper estimate of the good or bad actions of all, a general judgment should take place. . . . Finally, it was important to prove, that in prosperity and adversity, which are sometimes the promiscuous lot of the good and of the bad, everything is ordered by an all-wise, all-just, and all-ruling Providence: it was therefore necessary not only that rewards and punishments should await us in the next life but that they should be awarded by a public and general judgment."

 

[Yeshua1]

Catholics actually believe that there is a Particular Judgement which determines where each person goes IE heaven or hell. That happens at the point of death. Catholics believe that there is a general judgement where everyone is judged those hell bound and those going to heaven where

problem with that view is that we have ALREADY passed the judgement of God in THIS life, as we have passed over from spiritual death unto spiritual life in christ!

the bible ONLY states that beleievrs will stand before Jesus to render accounting for their good works/deeds, NOT to save if saved/lost, but as to IF eternal rewarded or not by God!

ONLY unbelivers face judgement by God for sins, that is great white thrown one, and ONLY lost go there, as works judged for fixing degrees of eternal punishment!

you view it based upon the RCC view that salvation os based upon grace/work mixture, as we are granted by God grace means to be saved, but we MUST co assist God in order to get saved!

Your system gives no real assurance of salvation, so that is why view judgemnnt as you do!

 

[The Biblicist]

problem with that view is that we have ALREADY passed the judgement of God in THIS life, as we have passed over from spiritual death unto spiritual life in christ!

Jn. 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The last phrase "is passed from death to life" is a translation of a perfect tense demosntrating a completed action that continues completed. Also this last phrase is given by Christ as EXPLANATORY of why believers "SHALL NOT COME into condemnation" in the future as Rome wrongly teaches.

This same truth is asserted by Christ in John 11 in these words:

Jn. 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

At the death of the physical body there is no judgement for believers as that judgment has already been completed and that is precisely why they "SHALL NEVER DIE" referring to the state of their soul.

the bible ONLY states that beleievrs will stand before Jesus to render accounting for their good works/deeds, NOT to save if saved/lost, but as to IF eternal rewarded or not by God!

This is proved by the fact that living believers at the return of Christ are directly caught to be with the Lord while the Lord is still "in the clouds" AFTER the resurection of the righteous dead are caught up first "in the air" to be "FOREVER WITH the Lord." There is no judgement at physical death or at the resurrection to determine heaven or hell for believers but only a judgment of rewards in heaven.

ONLY unbelivers face judgement by God for sins, that is great white thrown one, and ONLY lost go there, as works judged for fixing degrees of eternal punishment!

you view it based upon the RCC view that salvation os based upon grace/work mixture, as we are granted by God grace means to be saved, but we MUST co assist God in order to get saved!

Your system gives no real assurance of salvation, so that is why view judgemnnt as you do!

Absolutely correct!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

problem with that view is that we have ALREADY passed the judgement of God in THIS life, as we have passed over from spiritual death unto spiritual life in christ!

Salvation doesn't negate what we've done in this life. It puts us back in right standing with God. The bible speaks of spiritual rewards and loss of rewards. You may be heaven bound but you are still accountable for your actions. Many will enter into heaven by the skin of their teeth. 1 Cor 3:15 and Jude 1:23. Jesus said that he wouldn't condemn those who heard his words but didn't do what they said. but there is one who would judge those both who rejected his words and failed to do what he said. In this way God is just. You might not loose heaven but certainly many will not recieve as much as God wanted them to.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have to admit that I am somewhat puzzled by your answer. Some aspects are what I expected but other aspects pleasingly surprise me.

Salvation doesn't negate what we've done in this life. It puts us back in right standing with God.

I am not suprised by this respons as you fail to distinguish justification from "salvation" and that is not merely provides right standing with God but it permenantly provides right standing with God because it is only based upon Christ's righteousness and not based at all on ours.

The bible speaks of spiritual rewards and loss of rewards. You may be heaven bound but you are still accountable for your actions. Many will enter into heaven by the skin of their teeth. 1 Cor 3:15 and Jude 1:23.

Those that enter by "the skin of their teeth" have ALL THEIR WORKS judged as worthless - 1 Cor. 3:15 as they fall under the classification of "wood, hay and stubble" which are works of disobedience.

Jesus said that he wouldn't condemn those who heard his words but didn't do what they said. but there is one who would judge those both who rejected his words and failed to do what he said. In this way God is just. You might not loose heaven but certainly many will not recieve as much as God wanted them to.

You forget that Jesus also said that ALL JUDGEMENT was given by that One to Jesus. Jesus cannot judge himself unworthy and it is his life that is on the judgement stand IN THE PLACE OF the life of believers when it comes to justification for eternal life and heaven.

Their works are only in view for "rewards" - period!

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation doesn't negate what we've done in this life. It puts us back in right standing with God. The bible speaks of spiritual rewards and loss of rewards. You may be heaven bound but you are still accountable for your actions. Many will enter into heaven by the skin of their teeth. 1 Cor 3:15 and Jude 1:23. Jesus said that he wouldn't condemn those who heard his words but didn't do what they said. but there is one who would judge those both who rejected his words and failed to do what he said. In this way God is just. You might not loose heaven but certainly many will not recieve as much as God wanted them to.

you back tracked off the prior statement, as you stated that official RCC teaching on judgement is that we all have to be judged as to heaven/hell!

Do you now agree with the Bible and us that we are saved here in this life, and NO chance of losing heaven, just loss of eternal rewards?

 

[DHK]

you back tracked off the prior statement, as you stated that official RCC teaching on judgement is that we all have to be judged as to heaven/hell!

Do you now agree with the Bible and us that we are saved here in this life, and NO chance of losing heaven, just loss of eternal rewards?

The RCC has no assurance of eternal life. If one dies with mortal sin on their soul they are doomed to an eternity in hell.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

you back tracked off the prior statement, as you stated that official RCC teaching on judgement is that we all have to be judged as to heaven/hell!

Do you now agree with the Bible and us that we are saved here in this life, and NO chance of losing heaven, just loss of eternal rewards?

I'm saying what the catholic church teaches. If I back tracked it wasn't intentional. I said there wasn't a rapture. I said there weren't several judgments like rapture theory teaches. I believe we are all judged you and I and every one else. I believe there is the particular aspect of judgement and the general aspect of judgement. Particular decides or eternal fate of heaven or hell. General judges all of us based on our actions. I think where I may confuse you is that I believe for faith to be real faith it must be acted on. I argue with biblicist about this all the time.

Let me give you an example. Biblicist believes all you need to do is believe in Jesus. That means to him a heart felt intellectual assent that everything Jesus is and says is true and you are saved. However, I have a pentecostal friend who is "saved". He believes everything Jesus is and says is true and even prayed the "sinners prayer". However, he lives like the devil. He cheats on his wife, he gets drunk all the time, constantly watches pronography, has a mouth like a sailor. But.... he goes to church (when he's not hung over and feels like it). Now this man attest to having faith and that born again experience (and frequently speaks in tongues at church. He meets the definition that biblisict provides as being born again by his having "faith" by vocalizing "believing in Jesus". So accordingly since he has this faith in Jesus He's saved and nothing can take away that salvation (OSAS). Though this man constantly talks about wiping (killing) people groups who he disagrees with or doesn't like their ethnicity. (yes there are catholics like this too and I place them into the same catagory as this man). This man had a born again experience and "gave his life to Jesus" without actually giving his life to Jesus. However he has faith according to biblicist because this man believes in his bones that Jesus died for his sins and raised from the dead.
In my mind this man has no faith because its not acted on. He believes intelletually and emotionally but that is not the same as having a saving faith. Which is when a man lays down his life daily and dies to himself. Doesn't "coast" so to speak until judgement. I believe this man falls into the goats catagory. He'll call Jesus Lord but really didn't do anything about his faith which isn't really faith because it wasn't acted on. And that is the fundamental difference between Catholics and protestants. So when I see judgment stories like Matthew 25 it seems clear that there are those who will be judged based on their application of their faith. Because many of the goats will believe that they should be saved and even call God Lord and are confused as to why they weren't really saved.

Now how I understand the particular judgement is this at death we are judged for eternal life by our faith given to us through grace. But that is a faith acted upon not just intellectual assent. Then we will all be raised and all judged in the general judgement even those on their way to heaven thus the sheep and the goats are seperated by their actions all the sheep of course will have been determined at the particular judgement but they are still in the general judgement this doesn't mean then they will be judged to hell but for two purposes to meet out God's justice based on their actions (loss of rewards or gain of rewards) and as a rebuke to the goats (the unrighteous) or a witness to them of their great salvation leaving none with an excuse. Here the goats are sent to hell and the sheep will go to their reward. But all are accountable for their actions. Even the sheep. Though if they've (sheep) kept their faith (that which is acted upon to whatever degree that is) till the end then they will be saved at the particular judgment but all their actions are judged at the general judgement and those that aren't of eternal worth are burned up like in a fire but they still go to heaven. God will clarify to the wicked why they are being punished from the particular judgement and see the salvation they rejected in the righteous who are seperated out from them. Then they will be sent to hell.

Thats the best I can explain how I think about it but anyway I think that is where the confusion lies in how I view what actual faith is.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The RCC has no assurance of eternal life. If one dies with mortal sin on their soul they are doomed to an eternity in hell.

That isn't true. I am assured of my salvation as long as I don't apostate from the faith. I know I will go to heaven if I don't apostate. I'm certain of that fact. So you are wrong.

 

[Yeshua1]

That isn't true. I am assured of my salvation as long as I don't apostate from the faith. I know I will go to heaven if I don't apostate. I'm certain of that fact. So you are wrong.

What would be considered a mortal Sin though that will cause you to lose your salvation?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What would be considered a mortal Sin though that will cause you to lose your salvation?

Yep. Mortal sin will cause me to loose my salvation if I don't repent of it. Now ask me what a mortal sin is. BTW did you read the post before the one you quoted just now.

 

[DHK]

That isn't true. I am assured of my salvation as long as I don't apostate from the faith. I know I will go to heaven if I don't apostate. I'm certain of that fact. So you are wrong.

I have renounced my Catholic faith, my Catholic upbringing, my Catholic baptism, and all that the RCC stands for. I condemn the RCC and all of its apostate teachings. There couldn't be a more hellish religion on this world that sends people to hell. It is a masterpiece of Satan whose sole purpose is to deceive people and send them to hell.

There, Does the RCC now condemn me to hell also?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Since the RCC accepts all baptisms done in the name of the Trinity, why don't they allow non-RCs to take communion?

 

[Fred's Wife]

Why would a non-RC want to participate in the unbiblical Mass/Eucharist, which is a re-sacrifice of Christ in which the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ when it is blessed by the Catholic priest? (transubstantiation)