Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I've made no mistake It is exactly what Paul is talking about. He starts his letter and ends it that way.
That is the context which Paul wants to be understood.
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The Catholic Church
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That is the context which Paul wants to be understood.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Um, the passage is pretty clear and requires no interpolations to support my point:
""buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Col 2:12.
From grammatical considerations alone, one notes that IN BAPTISM we are buried and raised with Christ THROUGH FAITH. Baptism and Faith are thus not opposed to each other, but are brought to the closest proximity--baptism being the specific moment in which we buried/raised with Christ.
This is contrast with how you treat the Romans 4 passage (see below)
No, to your bloated INTERPRETATION (ie eisogesis) of Romans 4:11 (see below*).
Yet you ignore two things: (1) the point I made above that bibical saving faith is not workless; (2) the works Paul is opposing in this passage are the works of Torah, by the which the Judaizers thought they could be justified (whereas the Torah shows how we all fall short)
It does no such thing. This passage explicitly denies the necessity of CIRCUMCISION. There is no mention at all of Baptism, Communion, or sacraments in general. It's only your unwarranted reading of these things into the passage (based on your doctrinal presuppositions), which neither the strict grammar nor the immediate context will support, that you are able to come to your erroneous conclusion. The point remains that Paul nowhere opposes faith and baptism in regards to salvation--not in Romans 4 or anywhere else. On the contrary, his clear statement in Colossians 2:12 regarding the harmony between being saved with Christ 'IN BAPTISM' 'THROUGH FAITH' remains unrefuted.
I will not waste my time arguing over something so frivilous. The summary letters RJP may be new but what they stand for is as old as Christianity itself.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
First, the blessedness IS imputation of righteousness "without works" to a man.
Second, it is the forgiveness of sin and non-imputation of sin to a man.
Third, it is this BLESSEDNESS of imputation of righteousness and non-imputation of sin that he defines as justification received by faith. Think about it! In order to be justified by God a sinner needs righteousness and needs his sins removed - that is justification before God. This is obtained by imputation and non-imputation and received by faith.
That is not what it says. We are buried with him in baptism and in baptism we are raised with him. However, "through faith" has for its object "in the working of God" not "in baptism."
In other words, the object of our faith corresponds with the act of baptism. What we do in baptism corresponds to the object of our faith which is God's revelation of his resurrection as preached in the gospel.
In other words what we beleived in - God's power to rasie him from the dead is what baptism identifies us with. That is precisely why Peter says, "the like figure" whereunto baptism also now saves us.
This is in a context of the Old Testament CEREMONIAL laws which were done away becuase they provided only a SHADOW and not the very substance of salvation that was fulfilled in the life and death of Christ on the cross. New Testament ordinances look back as well as forward to the Second coming of Christ and only provide a SHADOW of the same substance yet to come.
Dealing with your last point -He is dealing with PRE-Torah type good works as he is dealing with the "works" of Abraham (Rom. 4:1-6) four to five hundred years before the Torah was ever written.
Dealing with your first point - He is denying that PRE-Torah works by Abraham are inclusive in believing - "worketh not BUT beleiveth" - v. 5
You forget that the CCC claims that circumcision is to be viewed on the same level as baptism in regard to sacramental value and therefore, to deny the necessity of circumcision is to deny the value of sacramentalism in conveying justifying grace.
He systematically denies that justification by faith:
1. Includes Pre-torah kind of good works as Abraham would not have any basis to "glory" in bad works - Rom. 4:1-6
2. Includes ordinances - Rom. 4:9-11
3. Includes Torah works of the law - Rom. 4:12-15
4. Includes the believer's personal contributions - Rom. 4:16-21 - but is obtained solely by the promise and power of God - JUSTIFYING faith is defined as receiving and resting in his promise and power
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You think about it! The context is in discussion with Jews who believe they have something to boast about in their law and circumcision. The blessedness is related to forgiveness of sin which is by faith
The point isn't the blessedness but the faith which brings about obedience. The blessedness is a result of that faith because the righteous are forgiven their transgretion by their faith.
No, it is not! You are confusing progressive sanctification which is rooted in regeneration with justification which is "without works."
No it is not! It stems from the UNIVERSAL assertion that neither Jew or Gentile have any basis to boast in their works as "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE for ALL (Jew and Gentile) have sinned.
Paul first denies justification by ANY KIND OF WORKS performed by ANY KIND OF MAN outside of the Person and works of Christ - Rom. 3:24-28. He then systematically uses Abraham who was a GENTILE and father of the circumcision to prove that NO TYPES OF WORKS performed by either Jew or Gentile are involved in justification by faith - Rom. 3:29-4:21.
1. Pre-Torah personal works - 4:1-6
2. Ceremonial ordinances - 4:9-11
3. Mosaic Law works - 4:12-15
4. Any kind of personal contributions at all - 4:16-21
Faith is defined as RECEIVING the promises of God and RESTING upon the power of God to obtain the promise - v. 21
Wrong again. The word "obedience" can't be found in Romans 4:7-8. It is Faith that obtains the blessedness of righteousness and remission of sins BY IMPUTATION and NON-IMPUTATION. Non-imputation cannot be stretched by any means to include your personal obedience any way you want to define it.
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Your ony escape from the plain contextual truth is either to do the RJP method or broaden the context so much you don't have to deal with the developmental particulars.
You have made some absolute false interpretations all through your expository attempts. However, nothing is a bigger error than how you defined "blessedness" in Romans 4:6-8. The man is "blessed" because of imputed righteousness and non-imputed sin and this "blessedness" is obtained by faith "without works."
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
It absolutely is. Paul is consitent in his whole teaching! Again the argument framed by Paul is:
1)Gods wrath is comming to sinners because of their sins
2)Gentiles are condemned apart from the law.
3)Jews are condemned by the law (which they don't follow)
4)Is there any advantage in being Jew? - Not really? both are condemened by their sins
5) Righteousness is given through faith
6) a Faith that leads to obedience.
Faith that gives us Grace by which we stand or obey God's will
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You yourself are doing what you accused me of RJP indeed! I guess its okay to accuse and you yourself do exactly what you accuse others of doing!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The context is context broaden is not a question. you jump into the middle of the argument and pull something out not intended in that argument. Paul has an argument and that argument is as I've outlined it.
This is a mixture of truth and error or a half truth.
We can agree on #1
We do not agree on #2 because it is the SAME law written on the Conscience of the Gentile that is EXPANDED in the writings of Moses - both represent the RIGHTEOUSENSS of God.
#4 does not rightly represent Paul's argument. Both are EQUALLY condemned UNDER THE LAW as sinners and NEITHER is justified by the Law of God whether it is written on conscience or on stone/skins.
#5-6 is pure delusion and distortion of Paul's argument. Righteousness is REVEALED in the PERSON and works of Christ which is IMPUTED to sinners through faith. Justification has nothing to do with IMPARTATION of righteousness as that is the work of regeneration manifested in progressive sanctification. There is not one word of IMPARTATION or faith that produces works for justification in this entire passage. That subject is taken up in Romans 6-8 in connection with the indwelling Spirit of God and the regenerate nature.
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The correct line of development by Paul is:
1. The Wrath of God is revealed against ungodly men - ch. 1:18-32
2. There are no men better than other men and judgement under the Law will demonstrate it as both jews and Gentiles have violated the law whether it be the Law of Moses or the law of conscience - ch 2;1-16
3. The Jew is not better than the Gentile as he is a hypocrit which invalidates his professed obedience to law and circumcision - ch. 2:17-29
4. The Jew has better revelation and privileges than the Gentiles - chs. 2:30-3:2
5. However, failure in light of revelation and priveleges is not God's fault - ch. 3;3-8
6. Jews and Gentiles are by nature sinners - ch. 3:9-18
7. Hence, the WHOLE WORLD is judged and condemned by the Law of God so that "every mouth" and "no flesh" can be justified by keeping law as that is not the purpose of the law - ch.3:19-20a
8. The Purpose of the Law and the prophets is to reveal sin and the righteosness of God that is now manifested in the Person and works of jesus Christ - ch. 3:20b-22
9. It is this righteousnes manifested in the person and work of Jesus Christ that all men without exception have come short - ch. 3:23
10. It is this righteousenss manifested in the Person and work of Jesus Christ that has propitiated (satisfied the legal demands of God) and is the basis of justiication received "freely by his grace" thorugh faith in Christ. - ch. 3:24-26
11. Because Christ satisfied the righteous demands of God in His own Person by His own works there is no grounds for boasting in justification because justification is by the "law" of faith which "law" excludes both Jews and Gentiles works of the law - ch. 3:27-28
12. This total exclusion of our works makes the ground level between Jews and Gentiles as all works are excluded. - ch. 3:29-30
13. Justification freely by His grace through faith in the satisfaction provided in the Person and works of Jesus Christ fully "establish" the Law as Christ satisfied it completely in His own Person and in His own works which we receive by faith alone. - ch. 3:31
14. Abraham is an example of both a GENTILE and Father of the Jews and his Pre-Torah good works played no part in his justication because justication is IMPUTED by faith not by his good works - Rom. 4:1-3
15. The nature of works = what people do = is opposed to grace and akin to debt and opposed to faith because justification is obtained by imputation without works - ch. 4:4-6
16. The blessed man obtains justification = imputed righteousness and non-imputed righteousness by faith - ch. 4:7-8
17. Therefore:
This blessedness is not obtained in connection with ordinances - vv. 9-11
This blessedness is not obtained in connection with law obedience - vv. 12-15
This blessedness is not obtained in connection with any kind of personal contributions - vv. 16-20
This blessedness is obtain by faith in God's power to obtain God's promises - v. 21
18. This is exactly how justification by faith in the gospel is received - vv 22-25
16.
a Gentile and father of the Jews
Again, the CCC demands that Old Testament circumcison be viewed as New Testament baptism in regard to sacramental value. Both Catholic defenders on this forum verified that by their interpretation of Colossians 2:12.
Romans 4:11 repudiates that circucmcision plays any role whatsoever in the communication or receiving of the grace of justification or the "blessedness" of imputed righteousness and non-imputation of sin. It goes further and repudiates it is essential to communicate the grace of justification in any person from Abraham forward or anyone considered be "of faith." Thus in repudiating circumcision from Abraham to Paul of any communicating value of the grace of justification to anyone at anytime considered to be "OF FAITH" Paul repudiates the whole sacramental doctrine of Romanism altogether.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Whatever, they are his arguments as he puts them forth. I got it straight from the scriptures.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The problem with your outline is you don't point out that at points Paul is specifically speaking to the Jews who think by virtue of their Judaism they have something over the Gentiles and that is how Chapter 3 and 4 are framed with Chapter 4 expressing the requirement of faith rather than their jewishness and the law. Since you do this you miss out on a whole part of his argument to the Judiazers. And the passage isn't about the blessedness as much as it is about faith. The blessedness is a result of faith just as obedience is.
Romans 4 is based upon PRE-Moses, PRE-Torah works. That is the whole point of using a man that is both a GENTILE and still one of the father's of Israel. He combines in one Person both Gentile and Jew but before the Law.
Abraham is specifically brought into this argument to show that there is no grounds for boasting by EITHER Gentile or Jew NOT MERELY THE JEW!
Absolutely false! Faith is NOTHING apart from the proper object which is Christ and his propitiatory sacrifice. It is this blessedness that is being IMPUTED to the "ungodly" through faith and this "blessedness" is by its very definition what justification is all about. Faith only receives and rests in this "blessedness" but does not produce it or participate in it in any kind of way.
Personal obedience is the very thing Paul is repudiating to be involved with this "blessedness" as this "blessednesss" is something that can only be IMPUTED to the believer rather than anything that the believer participates in producing.
Absolute proof is the fact that our sins are NON-IMPUTED to us which means that Christ alone bears them just as Christ alone provides the righteousness which is imputed to the beleiver.
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Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Again you miss out on the point of Chapter 4 because you're not reading it in the context of the whole. Why does Paul even bring up Abraham and pre-Torah? Why does he even mention it. Well if you read the book of Romans you would know where he is going with his argument. The Goal of the whole book of Romans is to lead gentile believers (as well as Jewish believers) in to Obedience which is by Faith. - Romans 1
However, the Jews were relying on their Jewishness to save them just by the nature of their "hearing the Law and Circumcision."
Note his audience. "If you call yourself a Jew" and we know he continues this argument for the Jews
Which they didn't by the way His audience is still those Jewish Christians. So ultimately do Jews have advantage over the gentiles when it comes to righteousness? Not really.
Why? Because there is only one way to be righteous by Faith.
The question then How is Faith the only way to be righteous when God gave Moses the Law and God gave Abraham circumcision which set apart the Jews from the rest of the world? Well because Faith has always been what establishes righteousness.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
continued
The argument goes if you could earn something from God then God has an obligation to provide it
The argument goes if you could earn something from God then God has an obligation to provide it
However, since that is not the case Faith is the vehicle which provides righteousness.
Even David noticed this when he said.
this is what you miss by taking a verse out of context. The Blessedness which David talks about supports Pauls argument about Faith. The verse isn't about Blessedness but about supporting Pauls argument for Faith. What the blessedness is as David describes it is the forgiveness of sins. Still the audience are Believing Jews so he's using their text to prove his point about faith. We see his argument further applied
So that any one Jew or Gentile who Follows Abraham in Faith has righteousness applied to them and they are blessed. The "blessedness" isn't the point of the argument but a support for the argument. The argument is still directed to the Jews. Faith is the key to this argument. And the Goal is obedience that must come by Faith
Romans 1:18-12:1 is designed to demonstrate the mercies of God in their salvation and it is that mercy that is designed to motivate them to obedience to God.
The mercy of God is demonstrated in Romans 1:18-3;23 because all men are justly condemned and under the wrath of God because they have violated God's law of righteousness whether it is written on conscience or stone, regardless of the extent of its revelation to them.
The mercy of God is demonstrated in Romans 3:24-5:21 because the righteousness of God is provided "freely by grace...through faith" in God's complete provision found in Christ and where sin abounds the grace of God much more abounds
The mercy of God is demonstrated in Romans 6-8 whereby the progressive sanctification of the believer is accomplished by the indwelling Spirit of God and not by the law of God so that we walk as we received the Lord Jesus Christ through faith.
The mercy of God is demonstrated to Israel (Rom. 9:16-18) in that Israel will be saved in spite of itself due to the covenant of God's elective grace (Rom. 11:25-32).
He is not speaking to the Jewish members in the congregations of Rome but to the unbeleiving Jews who believed in works for justification. The Jewish members in the congregations at Rome had already professed faith in Christ alone and had been baptized upon that profession of faith.
Paul is simply giving a systematic presentation of the doctrine of salvation and dealing with the LOST Jew and LOST Gentile and proving neither had any ability to be justified by works and that justification before God has never been and will never be by good works as defined by the law of God.
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Faith establishes righteousness BECAUSE faith is not in ones self but in the Person and works of Christ as the complete and full satisfaction of the righteousness of the Law and BECAUSE God IMPUTES righteousness to the believer (Rom. 3:24-5:2) in response to faith. Justification by faith is not reproduction of God's righteousness through participation but imputation of God's righteousness which is "freely by grace" RECEIVED and upon which faith RESTS as explicitly stated in Romans 4:21.
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