The Controversy of Christian Lyric

[Joshua Rhodes]

I don't believe it.

Besides, Enda, if in your opinion there's no such thing as "Christian" music, the idea of you posting opinions in a thread devoted to the Christian lyric seems pointless to me. I'm with Mike, and many others, we get that you don't like Christian music. You can stop berating us with the same thing. Some of us would like to discuss controversial Christian lyrics, and what makes them so controversial... which I might add is where this thread began.

Mike, the three songs you posted I've not heard. I know Mr. Taylor's music, but hadn't heard these. I'm going to try to find them. I'd like to hear them.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
Mike, the three songs you posted I've not heard. I know Mr. Taylor's music, but hadn't heard these. I'm going to try to find them. I'd like to hear them.

Joshua,

I like his music and his message a lot. There are a lot of websites dedicated to him.

For those who don't know, he was a youth pastor (I don't know if he still is) who combined the exhortation of a Keith Green with the poignancy and acerbic wit of an Elvis Costello.

His shows were filled with wild stage antics and he would often play different roles from old lady spinster school teacher ("Class, can anyone say 'situational ethics'?") to a psychotic Good Humor ice cream man (from the song, "I Blew up the Clinic Real Good") to, my favorite, an Adam Ant meets Gilbert and Sullivan British naval officer.

His stage shows were something to behold. Then, he retired and when he came back, it just wasn't the same.

The songs above are taken from "I Want to Be a Clone" and "I Predict 1990" and are generally considered to be his biggest songs (in addition to "Jim Morrison's Grave", later changed to "Kurt Cobain's Grave").

Out of print but well worth the effort to find.

 

[Molly]

Mike McK and others,

You mentioned exhorting one another...THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TO BE DOING...You are right,but maybe exhorting is something we need to do a little better than just singing song about the sin and difficulties of our flesh...I think there is enough focus on man and our shortcomings...let's be exhorted based on Christ's perfect life...how He handled mockings,and such...let us see our sin's and His forgiveness...let us see our weakness and His strength...in BIBLICAL concepts and Truths,not man's stories.

Exhortation should look like this:

Christ died for us while we were His enemies...He dies for us while we were helpless...while we were sinners. He was reviled,but did not revile in return....He has given us eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord...we can walk as children of God...when we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness....


Now,there is some biblical exhorting! Almost all the songs that have been listed here with controversial wordings have been so depressing...not at all revelaing the Truth of the gospel,the GOOD NEWS! We need to be exhorting,challenging,rebuking our brothers and sisters in Christ through biblical means,by allowing God's Word to be the source of what we say and do.


We need men who know God's Word and who can biblically counsel others to understand God's word and His will...we sure do not to think these songs provide that! The sad thing is many younger weaker christians may lean on these kinds of things...never being hungry for the meat of God's Word,which is what they really need to be exposed to.

Just my thoughts....

Molly

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Molly:
Mike McK and others,

You mentioned exhorting one another...THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TO BE DOING...You are right,but maybe exhorting is something we need to do a little better than just singing song about the sin and difficulties of our flesh...I think there is enough focus on man and our shortcomings...let's be exhorted based on Christ's perfect life...how He handled mockings,and such...let us see our sin's and His forgiveness...let us see our weakness and His strength...in BIBLICAL concepts and Truths, not man's stories.

Using stories to illustrate a point is as old as time. Every preacher does it, even, God forbid, yours. Even Jesus did it. Even Paul did it.

Exhortation should look like this:

That's a good example of exhortation but it's not the only one. You didn't call these people, God did. Let them do the work they've been called to do as they feel they were called to do it. Who are you to judge another's servant?

Almost all the songs that have been listed here with controversial wordings have been so depressing

Depressing to you, uplifting to others.

...not at all revelaing the Truth of the gospel,the GOOD NEWS!

So then, we shouldn't preach those parts of scripture that don't deal specifically with the Gospel?

We need to be exhorting, challenging, rebuking our brothers and sisters in Christ through biblical means,by allowing God's Word to be the source of what we say and do.

But all of the songs listed are Biblically based or, at least, Biblically supportable.

We need men who know God's Word and who can biblically counsel others to understand God's word and His will...we sure do not to think these songs provide that!

No, you don't think those songs provide that because they don't fit to your narrow view.

There's no "we" to it. I and others, evidently, think they're quite uplifting and edifying.

The sad thing is many younger weaker christians may lean on these kinds of things...never being hungry for the meat of God's Word,which is what they really need to be exposed to.

Then I guess it's a good thing that these songs and these artists point to God's word.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

whoops... let me try again.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Molly... here's what I see each song saying. I fail to see where these are not exhorting and calling the Body to action. I don't see them as depressing, unless they are speaking to you and you refuse to hear what they're saying.

ASLEEP IN THE LIGHT
“Church, wake up! We aren’t doing what Christ called us to do!”

SPIRITUAL ONE-NIGHT STAND
“Church, wake up! Don’t you realize that the world is seeing you act one way on Sunday, and then another during the week?”

HE
“Church, remember ‘the least of these’? Don’t forget we’re called to love them and care for them. That’s who these children are!”

FOR ANNIE
"Church, reach out to those around you who you assume know the love of Christ. They may not know He loves them.”

GOD'S OWN FOOL
“The ways of the Spirit and of God are foolishness to men. The world sees you following a fool. Follow Him proudly.”

CLEAR THE STAGE
“Worship is not just about singing. Worship is your life. So get rid of all the decorations if they’re distracting you from the One who is worthy.”

TBEY IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE
“Church, don’t go through the motions. Obedience is what you’re called to.”

VEGAS
“Isn’t it time you recognize that if you don’t exercise your faith, it may not be as real as you think?”

 

[Molly]

Mike,

All I can say in response to your post is...you are good at arguing!

You have taken everything I have said and argued it in order to support a view that everything is okay. I happen to disagree.

I do not think we should only preach the gospel...we prefer expository preaching(the whole counsel of God for every passage that is taught). The gospel is in there more that you think,though!

But,I do believe that believers should have a high view of God and these songs,yes,IMO,do not support a high view of God.

Sorry to disagree,but happy to discuss it with you!

I do not have all the answers nor do I pretend to,but after studying these kinds of church related issues and having been under very wise teaching and counsel,this is where we(my husband and I) are. I'm not wanting to put down your views to make you feel less of a christian at all...that is not my point,in fact we shared similar views a few years ago....I'm desiring for believers to step up to the plate when it comes to holy living. This would include all areas of life...I'v seen some real problems come from an attitude that shows a lack of reverence toward a Holy God...a fear of the Lord...My life was lacking in this area a few years ago,mainly because I had been a member of a typical SBC all my life and had not been exposed to sound doctrine...I have been very convicted about my own attitude in these areas and have so desired to be glorifying to God in all areas of my life...He has a big job to do in me,but His grace is sufficient.

Molly

 

[Molly]

Joshua,the things these songs are saying sound good coming from your interpretation..why doesn't the song say it as clearly as you do?



Molly

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Molly:
Mike,

You have taken everything I have said and argued it in order to support a view that everything is okay.

I did? Funny, I don't hold that view.

[qb]

these songs,yes,IMO,do not support a high view of God.

In your opinion. I find this especially ironic since two of the Steve Taylor songs I posted point the finger at Christians who do not hold a high view of God.

I'm desiring for believers to step up to the plate when it comes to holy living.

But you disagree when a Steve Taylor song or a Keith Green song expresses the same desire? That doesn't make any sense.

I had been a member of a typical SBC all my life and had not been exposed to sound doctrine

May I ask what area of our doctrine isn't Biblically sound?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Molly:
Joshua,the things these songs are saying sound good coming from your interpretation..why doesn't the song say it as clearly as you do?

For the same reason that the parables of Jesus are not perfectly clear to a casual listener...

The songs capture your imagination and get you to consider these timeless truths in a fresh way.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Plus... those would all be really short songs!

We used to sing in a restaurant I worked at:

"This is your birthday song,
And it's not very long."

That was it!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
SPIRITUAL ONE-NIGHT STAND
“Church, wake up! Don’t you realize that the world is seeing you act one way on Sunday, and then another during the week?”

HE
“Church, remember ‘the least of these’? Don’t forget we’re called to love them and care for them. That’s who these children are!”

FOR ANNIE
"Church, reach out to those around you who you assume know the love of Christ. They may not know He loves them.”

TBEY IS BETTER THAN SACRIFICE
“Church, don’t go through the motions. Obedience is what you’re called to.”

VEGAS
“Isn’t it time you recognize that if you don’t exercise your faith, it may not be as real as you think?”

Sounds like Carl Story's song, "You don't love God"

There are many people who will say they're Christians

And they live like Christians on the Sabbath day

But from Monday morning to the coming Sunday

They will fight their neighbor all along the way

Chorus

Oh, you don't love God

If you don't love your neighbor

If you gossip about him

If you never have mercy

If he gets into trouble and you don't try to help
him

Then you don't love your neighbor and you don't love God

Verse two

In the Holy Bible

In the book of Matthew

Read the eighteenth chapter and the twenty first verse

Jesus plainly tells us that we must have mercy

There's a special warning in the thirty fifth verse

Repeat chorus

Verse three

There's a God, Almighty and you've got to love Him

If you want salvaton and a home on high

If you say you love him while you hate your neighbor

Then you don't have religion

You just told a lie

Repeat chorus

 

[Molly]

Mike,
Please forgive my generalized statement about sbc churches! I think there are some good sbc churches out there....our church doctrinally lines up with sbc doctrine(mostly),but in a more calvinistic arena of teaching....things I was never taught,although,I believed and had studied election,it was never taught directly from a sbc pulpit...That is what I mean by doctrine...the teaching...not the doctrinal statements....I agree with most sbc doctrinal statements...it is the lack of teaching in some sbc churches that I have been under in my life that have raised a red flag to us....I'm sorry if I offended you. Please accept my apologies on that one! I realize there are some really good sbc churches out there...just not where we live. Your's may be outstanding in the area of expository teaching,biblical apologetics,and biblical counseling. There is defintely a great need for these kinds of churches. I pray yours is a strong one.

Anyway,

I see your point about the songs pointing to God,but I guess it is the choice of lyrics that seem to be strange and abstract in thought..the intent of the writer seems unclear and therefore leaves me wondering what it was all about. I don't have a problem with the writers,in general,they may be very good writers and theologically sound...I have no idea...we are simply discussing the lyrics and I see some questionable stuff there...

Friends,

Molly

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Molly:
Joshua,the things these songs are saying sound good coming from your interpretation..why doesn't the song say it as clearly as you do?

For the same reason that the parables of Jesus are not perfectly clear to a casual listener...

The songs capture your imagination and get you to consider these timeless truths in a fresh way. </font>[/QUOTE]My point exactly...this may be the big difference....


I believe God's Word is fresh and perfect the way it is...I don't think a writer of a song can add to or make Truth any better than it already is....OUCH!

Molly

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Molly:
I'm sorry if I offended you. Please accept my apologies on that one!

OK.

I see your point about the songs pointing to God, but I guess it is the choice of lyrics that seem to be strange and abstract in thought

To you but there are millions of us who do get it.

..the intent of the writer seems unclear and therefore leaves me wondering what it was all about.

What?!?

Which one of the songs above have ambiguous lyrics?

I see some questionable stuff there...

OK, then, what is questionable about them?

I believe God's Word is fresh and perfect the way it is

So then, when your pastor gives a sermon illustration, do you make the same complaint?

...I don't think a writer of a song can add to or make Truth any better than it already is!

Which of the writers above have tried to?

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes:
Here's another lyric: The singer/songwriter is Caleb Carruth. The song is called Vegas.

Vegas words and music by Caleb Carruth © 2002

A brief encounter in the city of sin,
In walks the devil, isn't she so beautiful?
She says "I hear they grow nice things in Texas,
That will mind-alter your perceptions..."
I correspond the secret, no, respond with a smile.

Don't believe my lies, I've been known to let you down,
In practice, I preach it's better not to offend than to change a life.
Forgive me, I've sentenced you to die.
As it all comes down to this one thing:
I know my faith it is a lie.

It's not nerves that I won't speak
Nor the apathy within me.
She chose or HE chose and if I speak will she be culpable?

I've had it up to here now,
I do this all the time.
Make war with my insides and insights that blind
And I know that you are the way the truth and life!
A gift freely given;
And I know You know...

For example,this song....

Who is is talking? The women,the devil? The entire lyrics are weird sounding...and I am really a pretty bright person....I do not understand this song....

 

[Molly]

Whose faith is a lie?

 

[DanielFive]

I don't believe it.

Is that your nicey nicey way of calling me a liar. Thanks.

Besides, Enda, if in your opinion there's no such thing as "Christian" music, the idea of you posting opinions in a thread devoted to the Christian lyric seems pointless to me. I'm with Mike, and many others, we get that you don't like Christian music. You can stop berating us with the same thing. Some of us would like to discuss controversial Christian lyrics, and what makes them so controversial... which I might add is where this thread began.

Stop whinging, I haven't berated anyone up to now. I thought you Americans believed in freedom of speech or am I only free to speak if I don't disagree with you.

FYI here's one verse I do agree with...

Anything I put before my God is an idol.
Anything I want with all my heart is an idol.
Anything I can’t stop thinking of is an idol.
Anything that I give all my love is an idol.
We must not worship something that ain’t even worth it.
Clear the stage, make some space for the One who deserves it.

Originally posted by Joshua Rhodes

CLEAR THE STAGE
“Worship is not just about singing. Worship is your life. So get rid of all the decorations if they’re distracting you from the One who is worthy.”

Every time you step up onto a stage with your guitar hanging round your neck you are distracting the saints from the One who is worthy. You are attempting to steal His glory, it is shameful that pulpits have been torn down and stages built to replace them.

Get off the stage entertainer, then pull down the stage and put the pulpit back up. Step aside and allow the one who IS called to preach to deliver his sermon without distraction.

The arogance of you musicians is astonishing. So you can play music, SO WHAT, don't fool yourself into thinking you are called to a ministry. In my opinion you are on an ego trip, the sooner you realise that the better.

 

[Molly]

I just don't get it....

It is a little bit of scripture all mixed up in a confusing story...that leaves me thinking...what is that about?

I'm glad you get it...I don't. Please explain.

The dumb one,
Molly

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Molly:
Who is is talking? The women,the devil?

In the second verse, the narrator is speaking the part of the Devil, who I don't believe is really the devil, but a representative of the battle of the flesh.

In all other verses, it's the narrator.

I do not understand this song....

There's no hidden spiritual meaning to it. He's simply relating a story and warning the listener not to fall put himself into a similiar situation, lest he find himself in a compromising situation.

Who's faith is it?

As I understand it, the narrator of the song is lamenting the situation he's put himself in and wondering what this says about his faith and whether or not he values his faith more or a physical experience more.