The Definition Of “Foreknowledge”

[atpollard]

Especially since you reject Romans 1as an answer.
Which was written after Jesus was lifted up.

You do know that Romans 1 does not talk about everyone knowing the gospel without hearing it preached and having knowledge of Jesus Christ, right? It just says that CREATION bears testimony that there is an eternal creator (God) so people that reject God for an idol are without an excuse for doing so … they know the dead idol is not God.

Romans 1 does not teach that unreached people groups should already know about Jesus Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Again I ask, were you there?

No, but there is a historic record of people that were there and made first contact with the people of the Americas … bringing them the Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ that they had never heard after the 1490’s.

This is at best a hypothetical question and can’t really be answered.

Actually, it can be answered. You just reject the obvious anwer:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! - Romans 10:13-15

Itzcoatl died before the preacher was sent.
Itzcoatl did not hear without a preacher.
Itzcoatl could not believe in a Jesus he had never heard of.
Itzcoatl could not call on a Jesus he did not believe in.
Itzcoatl was not saved by calling on the name of the Lord (Jesus) … he was not “drawn” to the cross.
”EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION” is not drawn to the cross (you have misunderstood Jesus’ words).

 

[Ben1445]

You're avoiding the question.

From Day One, did God work to ensure you, personally and individually, would come into the world? Or did you just luck out?

I answered the question you asked.
I’ll be more specific.
From what God has told us, God has created every person. Luck has nothing to do with our first appearance. Life is a gift from God.
There is nothing in Scripture that contextually supports the Calvinist view that God determines for people that they will be born again. Instead, God offers the gift of eternal life to all people in such a way that they know God and reject God and are without excuse.
I believe that God is no less Sovereign for giving each person the ability and opportunity to accept or reject Him. Does your God have the ability to do that?

 

[Ben1445]

You do know that Romans 1 does not talk about everyone knowing the gospel without hearing it preached and having knowledge of Jesus Christ, right? It just says that CREATION bears testimony that there is an eternal creator (God) so people that reject God for an idol are without an excuse for doing so … they know the dead idol is not God.

Romans 1 does not teach that unreached people groups should already know about Jesus Christ.

It says that they have enough information in creation to draw them to God so that they are without excuse. That is what it says. I believe it. I don’t need to find a way to justify it in my mind. God is the Judge. If He said that His natural revelation is enough to bring them to Him, I believe it.
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 

[Silverhair]

Is there a rebuttal in there somewhere?

No need for me to do a rebuttal as the bible has already done so.

Either your man-made religion or the word of God is true, it cannot be both.

Since your religion is man-made and based on pagan philosophy I will treat it the way I would treat the JW or Mormon religion. Try to teach those caught up in it that it is not the truth of God but is a mere shadow of truth.

Just like the JW's & Mormons the C/R religion contains a false teaching that is over laid with a kernel of truth designed to fool the unwary.

 

[Ben1445]

No, but there is a historic record of people that were there and made first contact with the people of the Americas … bringing them the Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ that they had never heard after the 1490’s.


Actually, it can be answered. You just reject the obvious anwer:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! - Romans 10:13-15

Itzcoatl died before the preacher was sent.
Itzcoatl did not hear without a preacher.
Itzcoatl could not believe in a Jesus he had never heard of.
Itzcoatl could not call on a Jesus he did not believe in.
Itzcoatl was not saved by calling on the name of the Lord (Jesus) … he was not “drawn” to the cross.
”EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION” is not drawn to the cross (you have misunderstood Jesus’ words).

Or it could be that they rejected God. God gave them opportunity to seek Him. They didn’t and eventually their opportunity ran out.
I give you the Amorites for an example.
Genesis 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

But still, lack of a record is not proof it didn’t happen. It is called plausible deniability. But whether it did or not makes no difference unless you have a time machine.

 

[Aaron]

No need for me to do a rebuttal as the bible has already done so.

Either your man-made religion or the word of God is true, it cannot be both.

Since your religion is man-made and based on pagan philosophy I will treat it the way I would treat the JW or Mormon religion. Try to teach those caught up in it that it is not the truth of God but is a mere shadow of truth.

Just like the JW's & Mormons the C/R religion contains a false teaching that is over laid with a kernel of truth designed to fool the unwary.

LOL.

The Mormons and the JWs preach free will. The Gospel does not.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I don’t disagree that the definition of “knowing” can mean to be in a relationship. At the same time, I don’t see how that also means that it has to be determined.

What I mean is that simply sharing what others who hold your position believes is really not helpful in debating against those who disagree with your view.

I quoted from The Bible Hub, here;

The Bible Hub: "Predestination highlights God's Foreknowledge
and His Intention to Conform believers to the Image of His Son,
as mentioned earlier in Romans 8:29.

It underscores the Assurance of Salvation, as God's Plan is Unchangeable and Certain."

Then, after those quotation marks, I went on further into how, although they are distinguished from one another,
in Romans 8:29; "For whom He did Foreknow, He also did Predestinate", gives us specifically what God did, when He Determined, or Predestinated, those He would eventually Call, Justify, and Glorify, and so, also, indicating how they are indispensably, intimately linked.

Then, while they all certainly Work together in God's Eternal Plan of Salvation,
Romans 8:30 gives you somewhat of a differentiation between what you are saying
that you don't see 'Foreknowledge' as having any element of 'Predestination', or 'Determination' in it,
when the two words are separated, in Romans 8:29; "For whom He did Foreknow, He also did Predestinate",

and yet, given the Historical Fact that God is describing there the various elements involved in His Way of Going about Establishing His Relationship with His Chosen people, while the two words are given to us separately, how could they be anymore interlinked, i.e., "whom He did Foreknow" couldn't be any more directly linked to "He also did" (Determine to) Predestinate."

Then, another brief quote with scriptures;

As they said in the article I shared, "When that term (knowledge) is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favor, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view".

"I know thee by name” (Ex 33:17).

“Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you” (Deut 9:24).

“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” (Jer 1:5).

“They have made princes and I knew it not” (Hos 8:4).

“You only have I known of all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2).

In these passages “knew” signifies either loved or appointed.

Concluding;

And also again, I believe those He says He "knows" in 'a relationship',
includes Him Determining to Care for them in all the ways that He has Promised,
as seen in the verses below;

“I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine” (John 10:14).

“If any man love God, the same is known of Him” (I Cor 8:3).

“The Lord knoweth them that are His” (II Tim 2:19).

 

[Silverhair]

LOL.

The Mormons and the JWs preach free will. The Gospel does not.

Agree the gospel does not. but then again the gospel is not about free will is it?

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

But the bible does not teach determinism but for some strange reason you believe it.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God either condemns them for there free will choice or because He caused them to reject Him. If the latter then why say they have no excuse. God would have given them the best excuse going, He determined what they would do.

You need to start thinking through your religion.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Act 17:24-27 "...that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; "

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That requires a free will to be able to make the choice.

The fact that you have to use your free will just to make a comment on this board is an argument for free will.

The only reason that you believe that man has no free will with which to evaluate the evidence for God is because you have a free will. The only other option is that your view was determined for you so you have no rational way to state an opinion.

 

[Ben1445]

I quoted from The Bible Hub, here;

Then, after those quotation marks, I went on further into how, although they are distinguished from one another,
in Romans 8:29; "For whom He did Foreknow, He also did Predestinate", gives us specifically what God did, when He Determined, or Predestinated, those He would eventually Call, Justify, and Glorify, and so, also, indicating how they are indispensably, intimately linked.

Then, another brief quote with scriptures;


Concluding;

well, all i got out of this is "i told you so."
there is too much quoting to go back and actually have the context of each quote.
i also don't trust you not to add your own context.