The difference between Calvinists and Armenians (as I see it)

[Jarthur001]

Yes I would

I would agree again.

Now Bob..I know you and I do not agree on grace, but I hope you know we agree 100% on God is a Holy God....and hates sin. I can not overstate this fact.

You said God will not make man sin.

You also said to be a whoremonger is a sin. ....for this is what the Bible says.

Remember we are talking about the very nature of God. If God goes away from His nature in anyway...just for a moment...He would no longer be God. God is unchanging. If He is Holy today and hates sin, he is always holy and hates sin. Everyday...each day....its always sin. Which I agree...He is always holy..and hates sin.

Now...Hosea 1:2

2The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

This was not a lust that Hosea fell into...God demanded this.

so....what do you think?



in Christ...James

 

[Brother Bob]

1Cr 6:16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.


Jos 6:17And the city shall be accursed, [even] it, and all that [are] therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that [are] with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

Jos 6:25And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel [even] unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

Just maybe God was going to have mercy on the Harlot as He did in Rahab.
It was the Whore that sinned. You cannot lay your sins to me or mine to you. That is how I see it. God didn't make her be a whore.
Whether He was going to have mercy on her or not He santified the marriage. So what is your point?

 

[Jarthur001]

1Cr 6:16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.


Jos 6:17And the city shall be accursed, [even] it, and all that [are] therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that [are] with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

Jos 6:25And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel [even] unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.

Just maybe God was going to have mercy on the Harlot as He did in Rahab.
It was the Whore that sinned. You cannot lay your sins to me or mine to you. That is how I see it. God didn't make her be a whore.
Whether He was going to have mercy on her or not He santified the marriage. So what is your point?

Whoremonger is a sin. Whoremonger is the one that TAKES the whore. God demanded Hosea to take Gomer..a whore...as his wife...and now Hosea is a whoremonger.

 

[Brother Bob]

The problem with your reasoning is that you are thinking backward. You are judging that if doesn't "offer" grace to everyone, then it must seal their fate, therefore God would be unfair if He didn't offer it to everyone.

If God picking out some for no reason at all is not unfair then what is fair, is "fair" some unknown word that we don't know about or what?

 

[Brother Bob]

Are you saying who ever marrys a woman of the world turns out to be a sinner for that reason. If Hosea took her and made a good woman out of her I would think He did a good work. The sin was whoredom because she defiled the body not the taking someone out of sin. If taking someone out of sin is a sin then we preachers sure are in trouble.

Scripture please?

James, This Scripture of Hosea is not talking about a woman being a whore and Hosea taking a whore for a wife but to take a wife of the land that Israel occupied who had played the whoredom it was about Israel playing the Harlot and worshipping Idol Gods. Also it is not Whoremonger but "whoredom".

 

[Jarthur001]

If God picking out some for no reason at all is not unfair then what is fair, is "fair" some unknown word that we don't know about or what?

I have always told this story.

By the same parity of reasoning it makes the governor of a state unjust when he pardons one or more men, unless he empties the prison and turns all the prisoners loose. Our view of election is in harmony with what even the Arminians allow to be proper and just for a human governor. All can see that a governor, by pardoning some men, does not harm others, who are not pardoned. Those who are not pardoned are not in prison because the governor refused them a pardon but because they were guilty of a crime against the state. Isn't God to be allowed as much sovereignty as the governor of a state? Salvation, like a pardon, is something that is not deserved. If it were deserved, then God would be unjust if He did not bestow it upon all men.

IN Christ..James

 

[Brother Bob]

Govenor alway pardons for some reason or reasons made by many people or because someone has repented enough to satisfy the Govenor. Surely God would require the same that a person repent not just save a sinner who was a corpse and had no intentions of serving God. It don't work that way for God sees them believe in Him and He pardons them.

 

[J.D.]

If God picking out some for no reason at all is not unfair then what is fair, is "fair" some unknown word that we don't know about or what?

Bob, I know you don't like uninvited guests in your conversations, but I couldn't let this one get by.

You've been shown many times that God does not choose the elect by random or for no reason, but for His own purposes, which he does not reveal to us.

I wonder if you are willfully blind to the truth because you can't bring yourself to let go of your own sense of worth and merit in salvation?

It seems that when you say the God picks out some "for no reason", what you really mean is "for no reason that I approve of"?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, I know you don't like uninvited guests in your conversations, but I couldn't let this one get by.

You've been shown many times that God does not choose the elect by random or for no reason, but for His own purposes, which he does not reveal to us.

I wonder if you are willfully blind to the truth because you can't bring yourself to let go of your own sense of worth and merit in salvation?

It seems that when you say the God picks out some "for no reason", what you really mean is "for no reason that I approve of"?

Please show me Scripture not your unpleasent words towards me. If you can persuade me by Scripture I will listen. You have never given Scripture that supports your theory. JD

I say the reason is the same as Apostle Paul said, Jesus said, The whole Bible says "belief".

 

[webdog]

No, you didn't make a decision that was contrary to your desires. Rather, you made a decision that was in complete accord with your greatest desire at the time. Your desire to maintain your good relationship with your niece and her parents, or your love for them, was greater than your desire to go to the park.

You ask "who are we to say that a sinner will not choose Christ?" Look at your own words. SINNER. Choose Christ? You tell me, how can a SINNER choose Christ?

Man is born with a sin-nature. When man is born again of God he has two natures. Do you dispute this? If not, then tell me, how can a man that has one nature, the sin-nature, just "decide" to have a new nature? He can not and will not apart from the supernatural intervention of God. God reaches into the heart of his elect at a time appointed and gives them a new heart, changing their wills, infusing the new nature, shedding the love of God abroad in their hearts, and awaking faith and repentance in them through the Gospel. Salvation is of God.

Watching my niece wasn't the "greatest desire", but the one that needed to be done. I could have called my sister in law and told her something came up to appease my "greater desire". It wasn't written in stone, nor was I in "bondage" to make the decision I did.

 

[J.D.]

Watching my niece wasn't the "greatest desire", but the one that needed to be done. I could have called my sister in law and told her something came up to appease my "greater desire". It wasn't written in stone, nor was I in "bondage" to make the decision I did.

Then necessity coerced your decision. It was not made in a void.

 

[webdog]

Then necessity coerced your decision. It was not made in a void.

Exactly. It also wasn't made out of being in bondage toward it. A choice based on necessity sometimes outweighs desire. After hearing the Gospel and the dire condition I was in, a decision for Christ was made out of necessity...that I was a sinner and headed towards hell. I could have chose the greater desire...self, but necessity ruled. Calvinism claims a sinner can choose ONLY the greater desire, that he's in bondage to that choice. This is what you stated earlier, but we see that is false.

 

[EdSutton]

Once again, I'll say there is no difference between 'Arminian' theology and 'Calvinistic' theology in the final analysis. When one's "perseverance" (really meaning does one measure up to whatever undefined 'standard' I or someone else sets) falls short, I don't see that it makes any difference between the 'Calvinistic' conclusion that one "never had it in the first place" (a common affliction with the "Lordship salvation" crowd, as well) or the 'Arminian' conclusion that "one may or may not 'have had it' but regardless, doesn't have it now". These two man-made systems both deny grace, and attempt to make the final determination before God by how well one's works fit my ideals. The two best Biblical examples I can find are Abraham (Rom. 4) and Lot. You of course do recall that Lot is called 'righteous' or 'just' three times in Scripture, and is the only individual specifically identified in Scripture as "Godly", do you not? The Biblical "saint of saints"! :laugh: raise: :roll eyes:

Interestingly enough, I seldom find the mayor of Sodom given as a great example from Scripture. Wonder why???raise:

FTR, not one other individual, to my knowledge, is ever called "righteous" or "just" more than once.raise:

Ed

 

[npetreley]

Fair is fair

If God picking out some for no reason at all is not unfair then what is fair, is "fair" some unknown word that we don't know about or what?

I think the meaning of the word "fair" is pretty obvious. If everyone deserves something, but you only give it to a few, then that is unfair.

If nobody deserves something, but you give it to a few, that is unmerited favor or grace.

If, by giving something to one person who doesn't deserve it, God is obligated to offer the same thing to all men, then it is no longer grace, it is an obligation. God must oblige all, or else he's not fair. But God never said that because He gave something to one man He must then offer it to all. In fact, the entire Bible is filled with examples of God granting undeserved favor to one person but denying it to another.

So your concept of fairness turns grace into an obligation, which is anti-Biblical.

 

[Dale-c]

If God picking out some for no reason at all is not unfair then what is fair, is "fair" some unknown word that we don't know about or what?

So, Bob are you saying that you DESERVE salvation?

But you know what? Paul answered you question in Romans 9. WHy don't you read that again. You have read that haven't you? It is amazing how few preachers actually PREACH from Romans 9.

Romans 9 blows the self determination doctrine away more than any other passage in scripture IMO.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy

There you go Bob. PLease quite accusing the God that saved me of unfairness, or as Paul put it, unrighteousness!

 

[J.D.]

Exactly. It also wasn't made out of being in bondage toward it. A choice based on necessity sometimes outweighs desire. After hearing the Gospel and the dire condition I was in, a decision for Christ was made out of necessity...that I was a sinner and headed towards hell. I could have chose the greater desire...self, but necessity ruled. Calvinism claims a sinner can choose ONLY the greater desire, that he's in bondage to that choice. This is what you stated earlier, but we see that is false.

The necessity was born of your desires. You're equating desire with pleasure. There are many desires other than pleasure. If I choose to do something unpleasant over something pleasant, it is because I have a greater desire to do the unpleasant. I might have a desire to do something noble and self-sacrificing, but only because I desire the status or relationship or whatever else that I find beneficial from the noble act, in any case, my decision to act is inextricably tied to my desires.

And desires in regards to spiritual matters are tied to one's nature. We are born with a fallen nature. How shall that fallen nature produce right desires and therefor right choices before God? It shan't. Only the renewing of the Holy Ghost can bring the change.

 

[Brother Bob]

If nobody deserves something, but you give it to a few, that is unmerited favor or grace.

So, you walk in a schoolyard filled with children and you pick out 10 and give them an ice cream cone in front of all the others and you call that being just and fair, that is the kind of God you say we have if we are lucky enough in your theory to receive it?

 

[Brother Bob]

So, Bob are you saying that you DESERVE salvation?

No and neither do you. If God gives you Salvation and He created you and me then there is no difference between you and me and If God picked you to give Salvation in front of me and sent me to hell that would be unjust and He is no respect in persons so How can you say He respected you over me?

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm surely glad that God did not treat me fairly. I'm grateful that he extended mercy and grace toward me, not fairness. If He treated me fairly, I would be without hope, in this life or the next.

 

[reformedbeliever]

God, as Creator, has the right to dispose of His creation as He see fit.