The disputed ending of Mark 16.

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This is an age old argument. Many agree with this, some do not.

As far as salvation is concerned, that rests solely on the Gospel of Christ alone.

Of course then come the Judaizers.

Read Colossians, Galatians about our freedom in Christ.

We know that the disciples worshiped on the first day of the week as is shown in the Scriptures.

I don't see anywhere that says they worshiped and assembled on the Sabbath day, and that it was the mandate for the church to do so.

GE:

You say you are a preacher for truth, but,

1) "know that the disciples worshiped on the first day of the week as is shown in the Scriptures" ?!

and,

2) "don't see anywhere that says they worshiped and assembled on the Sabbath day" ?!

... a preacher ?!
... for TRUTH ?!

Well I needed a laugh today ... so thanks for it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Which authors have you consulted and then concluded they don't state and hold to first day resurrection?

GE:

How do you expect him to 'consult authors' of the Bible books if there are none?!

Which 'authors' of Bible Books have YOU 'consulted' that "concluded" or 'state', that the early Christians 'held to' a "first day resurrection"?

Wouldn't it be MUCH EASIER simply to have QUOTED them here for everyone to read them?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

p.....................

Actually, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. .....................

GE:

Ironically, dear Strats, NEITHER of these texts 'ACTUALLY' mention that anybody ACTUALLY - that is, by Predicate or finite, Indicative Verb, mention that anybody got together on the First Day ... it's the Sundayists who try their make-belief on simple but honest people like you and me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

..........................

It doesn't really matter which day we worship. It's not a determinitive factor regarding salvation, nor are we to judge one anothers days of importance and days that one respects as holy or not.

........................

GE:

It doesn't really matter which day we worship as long as we worship on Sundays and not on the Sabbath.

It's not a determinative factor regarding salvation, as long as we worship on Sundays and not on the Sabbath.
We are not to judge one anothers’ days of importance or respect, as long as it’s Sundays and not the Sabbath which is one’s day of importance and respect …

… really …

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why stick to only the 10? Let's do all 613.

Arer you seeking to be under the Law and under it's curse?

The disciples worshiped on the first day of the week. You've attempted to make this fact trivial. If the Scriptures said it more, what then? It has to say it how many times to be valid? Where do the Scriptures state to the NT church worship is to be done according to the Sabbath Day?

They also worshiped other days. There is no mandate within the NT that we are to worship on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 16:2 also alludes to first day gathering and giving. So you're incorrect with limiting it to the passages you've given.

It doesn't really matter which day we worship. It's not a determinitive factor regarding salvation, nor are we to judge one anothers days of importance and days that one respects as holy or not.

I also see nothing in Acts 20:7 suggesting that they gathered just because Paul happened to be in town. That's eisegetical.

Is there something you gain by observing only on a certain day, specifically teh Sabbath day? Favor? Merit? Pride? Righteousness?

GE:

SEE WHAT I MEANT in my post before this?

 

[freeatlast]

GE:

Ahhh! another of THOUSANDS more!

Quote me what the BIBLE recorded "really happened".

Those links are is all bible.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When I quote a verse, I do so within context, that is why I do that.

Secondly, we know that Jesus could not have risen earlier because we know he must have been dead for three days for theological reasons and other verses.

GE:

"According to the Scriptures ... Christ rose the third day" of the PASSOVER!

According to the Scriptures Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 1Corinthians 11:23 Exodus 12:15 Leviticus 23:11,15 et al ... Christ was crucified and died "Came the first day they always had to KILL the passover ... the day they REMOVED (the) LEAVEN" ... OF LIFE "THE VERY FIRST DAY" of passover Exodus 12:14,15a Leviticus 23:5.

According to the Scriptures the PASSOVER Scriptures "Came Evening already ... since it had been the Preparation ... which is the Fore-Sabbath SUDDENLY there came JOSEPH ..." on the scene "with the INTENT TO BURY the body of Jesus .... and ... he closed the grave and ... by the time of the Jews' preparations to start ... DEPARTED when That Day the Preparation had been and began to incline towards the Sabbath" Luke 23:54 John 19:42.

THREE REAL, 'Scripture-days' the three "first" days of the first passover and last three days of the Last Passover of Yahweh.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ruiz,

re: "...we know that Jesus could not have risen earlier because we know he must have been dead for three days for theological reasons and other verses."

That is dependent on the day of crucifixion. If it was on the 5th day, then the resurrection had to be on the first day, but if it was on the 4th day, then the resurrection had to be on the seventh day. What we do know is that the crucifixion couldn't have taken place on the 6th day because of Matthew 12:40 and Luke 24:21.

GE:

I don't grasp your mathematics of days. Have just looked at the 'logics' of trigonometry, and must say it made a little better sense to my 'logic' which was none non the less.

 

[HankD]

GE:

"Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.​

"rest" is sabbatismos
Literally given in the ASV as:
ASV Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God."​

Correct!

"In the context it is given
Hebrews 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day."​

FALSE!

It is written:

Hebrews 4:8,
"For if JESUS had given them rest [KATAPAUSIS], he [God] would not have spoken afterward of another day ['allehs hehmeras']-OF-SALVATION", the OPPORTUNITY of salvation through JESUS.

The 'sabbatismos' of the new Covenant is NOT 'another day',
but it is
"a KEEPING OF the Sabbath DAY REMAINING VALID for the People of God _HE_ [JESUS] having had entered into His Own Rest ['katapausis' - through Resurrection from the dead] as God-in-His-Own."

Once we entered into GOD'S rest in JESUS, we remain there and we cease from our own works unto self-earned righteousness like inventing Sunday-worship.

When the temple veil was rent the Old DISPENSATION or SERVICE had given way to the New. The Lord of the New and ETERNAL Covenant of GRACE had conquered sin and death and "IN IT TRIUMPHED". Athaliah, “that wicked woman” and symbol of "the last Enemy Death", had been slain and "the Son of the King CROWNED ... and the City RESTED ... on the SABBATH DAY" as it is WRITTEN as Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD in the grave, not afterwards.

Jesus Christ now – AS ALWAYS – has been GOD’S ‘Rest’ ‘katapausis’— GOD’S ‘Rest’ for all the people of God, Jew and Gentile believers together, JUST AS Hebrews 4:2 says,
“For unto us was the Gospel preached, AS WELL AS UNTO THEM.”

“THAT IS WHY” – says the word ‘ara’ that begins the ninth verse of chapter 4 – “BECAUSE OF”, “GOD’S REST” by “the Power of Christ’s Resurrection”, “IS THE REASON, a keeping of the Sabbath DAY remains the duty of the People of God”, Jew or Gentile.

Hebrews 4:8 as well as Acts 7:45 speak of Joshua, not Jesus our savior.

"another day" is part of the scripture.

Yes, there is 'another day' (sabbatismos) and it is our "duty" to enter into this rest permanently 24/7 and cease from our own works, and not fall in disbelief.

Now if anyone has entered into Christ's rest and wants to keep Saturday sabbath, fine, but they must first have entered into His rest to receive the promised rest for his soul.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

I wont if you wont.

If you go back and look at my post I didn't name anyone in particular but was presenting the rest that Jesus Christ provides as superior to the 7th day sabbath of the law given to Moses and Joshua.

Those who keep the 7th day sabbath must do it every week (and I am not saying the 7th day rest shouldn't be done, but that it is not a "duty") whereas we must enter into the rest Christ provides once for eternity.


HankD

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE:

_WE_ were talking about Matthew 28:1; not about Mark 16:9.

You may try to start all over again.

GE:

Correction:

"... We were talking about Matthew 28:1; not about _Luke 24:1_."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hebrews 4:8 as well as Acts 7:45 speak of Joshua, not Jesus our savior.

"another day" is part of the scripture.

Yes, there is 'another day' (sabbatismos) and it is our "duty" to enter into this rest permanently 24/7 and cease from our own works, and not fall in disbelief.

Now if anyone has entered into Christ's rest and wants to keep Saturday sabbath, fine, but they must first have entered into His rest to receive the promised rest for his soul.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

I wont if you wont.

If you go back and look at my post I didn't name anyone in particular but was presenting the rest that Jesus Christ provides as superior to the 7th day sabbath of the law given to Moses and Joshua.

Those who keep the 7th day sabbath must do it every week (and I am not saying the 7th day rest shouldn't be done, but that it is not a "duty") whereas we must enter into the rest Christ provides once for eternity.


HankD

GE:

Hebrews 12:2, “we are looking at JESUS the Author and Finisher of our Faith” and Giver of God’s Rest, verse 2b;

Hebrews 12:24,
“We are come to JESUS the Mediator of the New Covenant … See that YE REFUSE NOT _HIM_”, “JESUS, the Son of God, LET US HOLD FAST OUR PROFESSION” 4:14 which is that “JESUS had given them Rest”— the Rest of God!

Hebrews 13:20,
“The God of Peace that BROUGHT AGAIN FROM THE DEAD OUR LORD JESUS that Great Shepherd of the sheep.”

TWENTY times in Hebrews it is WRITTEN, “JESUS” and without exception it is MEANT, JESUS”— THIS “Jesus the Son of God” and God’s Joy, Wellpleasing … and: “REST”.

“JESUS”; not, Joshua who DID NOT give Israel rest, in any case!

And I could quote but you could also go read Calvin who mentions several greats of the past who all say as Calvin does, that it is Jesus Christ in Hebrews 4:8.

But most important to me is the context of Hebrews 4 before verse 8 where the reference indisputably is to Adam and Eve before any others who DID NOT ENTER into God’s Rest and rather PREVENTED entrance as for themselves, for just about everybody else.

But in Hebrews 4:8 as everywhere in Hebrews,
nothing is TRUER:
“IF JESUS GAVE THEM REST,
God would after these things”
— “these things”, God’s Rest through Jesus Christ —
“never again speak of another day”
— “another day” of opportunity and grace to enter God’s Rest.

Jesus Christ the Only Way! Is the message of Hebrews throughout as well as in 4:8 specifically. That is the meaning of the word “day” in verse 4b; that, and not the failures of the Jewish leaders of the past like Joshua who is not even given a thought in the whole of the context.

The idea of Joshua being the subject in 4:8 is a corner-stone of Wednesday crucifixionism. Are you a Wednesday crucifixionist?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Those links are is all bible.

GE:

So why should I or anyone else consult them, if we have the Bible? That's what he's said!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think every scholar holds he was in the ground for three days. The debate is whether that three day period is three days from the day he died or includes the day he died. The point is still valid either way. Predominantly, Mark 16 does not teach a new doctrine. Your presupposition that it does is false. The text in other places clearly shows the Resurrection on Sunday.

GE:

What makes you think “he was in the ground for three days”?!

And what makes you think “The debate is whether that three day period is three days from the day he died or includes the day he died”?! What makes you think it is debateable the a priori the three day period includes the day He died?!

I’ll tell you what!

That you do not know WHICH AND WHAT ‘DAYS’ the “three days” ARE!

It seems the whole of Christiandom is oblivious to the most before hand Bible Truth there is, that the “three days” “on the third day” of which “Christ according to THE SCRIPTURES rose from the dead” on, were the “three days thick darkness” and three “first” days of the Passover of Yahweh.

Now give us please WITHOUT WHAT YOU THINK, “The text in other places …” of the Scriptures that “… clearly shows the Resurrection on Sunday”?

This is the most urgent!

 

[freeatlast]

GE:

What makes you think “he was in the ground for three days”?!

And what makes you think “The debate is whether that three day period is three days from the day he died or includes the day he died”?! What makes you think it is debateable the a priori the three day period includes the day He died?!

I’ll tell you what!

That you do not know WHICH AND WHAT ‘DAYS’ the “three days” ARE!

It seems the whole of Christiandom is oblivious to the most before hand Bible Truth there is, that the “three days” “on the third day” of which “Christ according to THE SCRIPTURES rose from the dead” on, were the “three days thick darkness” and three “first” days of the Passover of Yahweh.

Now give us please WITHOUT WHAT YOU THINK, “The text in other places …” of the Scriptures that “… clearly shows the Resurrection on Sunday”?

This is the most urgent!

The bible says three days and three nights, not just three days.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Although we can regard Sunday as "the Lord's day," there is NO Biblical evidence that the Sabbath switched to Sunday.

We can assemble to worship on the Lord's day to remember the resurrection, but doing so is NOT observing the Sabbath.

Either we are under the Saturday Sabbath or we are not.

I say the Christian life is the New Covenant fulfillment of the Sabbath.

In Creation, God rested the seventh day because He completed the original work of Creation.
When mankind sinned, we needed a redeemer. Christ had His work scheduled. The Sabbath, like the sacrifices, and all the Law were types and pictures of Christ, awaiting His work and completion.

Christ finished the work of redemption and then sat down (Hebrews 1:3; 10:12), which a Levitical priest never did when entering the Holy of Holies. A priest offered the sacrifice, then continued to stand and leave. Christ sat down to demonstrate that the work was complete.

Now, we are not subject to literal Sabbath day observances:
Colossians 2
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

We enter into His rest:
Hebrews 4
2: For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3: For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

GE:

“Although we can regard Sunday as "the Lord's day," there is NO Biblical evidence that the Sabbath switched to Sunday.”

On what grounds do you “regard Sunday as "the Lord's day"”?

It is “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD” that
ALL “Biblical evidence” regard as "the Lord's Day" because
God in Christ “the Seventh Day finished”, and
in and through Jesus Christ
“from ALL his works rested”—
who is “my Lord and my God” THE RISEN from the dead
touched by the hand of the heart touched by faith.
John 20:28.

THEREFORE:
… we assemble and worship
“on the Lord JESUS' Day” OF RESURRECTION,
and “remember the Sabbath Day BECAUSE …
… GOD, IN IT RESTED” …
… “RESTED” by having RAISED Him from the dead—
“IN THE SABBATH’S DAY”—
which very thing for God as well as us …
… is ‘observing the Sabbath Day’.

We are under God’s Law or we are under the commandments and traditions of men … for Jesus Christ is the New Covenant Fulfilment of God’s Holy Sabbath Promises. Indeed
“God gave HIM as HEAD over all things
TO THE CHURCH”— by
“the working of his POWER which God worked …
… WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD …”
… “the SUBSTANCE” and “Body of Christ’s Own”.
Colossians 2:12-19.

Therefore “In Creation, God rested the seventh day because He completed the original work of Creation” IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST IN AND THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF HIM “IN THE SABBATH – SABBATH’S-TIME” the Seventh Day of the week!

Therefore again, absolutely true,
“When mankind sinned, we needed a redeemer.”
And Christ had His work scheduled.”
The Sabbath, like the sacrifice which GOD made THAT DAY
Genesis 3:8-24—ALL— were
types and Divine Promise and Prophecy of CHRIST-AWAITING-HIS-WORK of completion and rest through Resurrection from the dead in the last day.
Jesus Christ is “The Beginning of the creation of God”.

“Christ sat down to demonstrate that the work was complete” and
“THEREFORE”— Hebrews 4:9 ‘ara’—
_WE_, now as “The People of God are subject to literal Sabbath day observance" = Hebrews 4:9 ‘apoleipetai sabbatismos tohi laohi tou Theou’.

Quoting you, AresMan quoting
Colossians 2
16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

“We enter into His rest:”— we “must keep God’s Sabbath Day”.
But NEVER the other way around because that is what Hebrews 9:8-10 demands!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The bible says three days and three nights, not just three days.

GE:

You are not answering my question; I don't ask the length of time or number of days.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What I am saying, is other texts clearly teach it.

You are setting a standard for evidence to the hyperliteralism. However, exegetically, we don't need hyperliteralism to show the first day like we don't need it for the Trinity. The passages I cited clearly show Jesus rose on the first day of the week within it's context. If you want a hyperliteral text, we will not be able to meet your criteria. However, if you accepted standard exegetical rules, the evidence is clear... as clear as the Trinity.

GE:

Is this what your "hyperliteralism" means, the literal truth you have NOT quoted, i.e., “cited” as you claim, ONE SINGLE “passage”, yet?!

Literalism must be the better option …

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ruiz,

re: "I think every scholar holds he was in the ground for three days. The debate is whether that three day period is three days from the day he died or includes the day he died."

I suppose there are a few who debate that, but the predominate debate is whether the time has to include at least parts of three light periods AND at least parts of three dark periods or whether it only has to include parts of three calendar days.

GE:

Like me who maintain BOTH that the moment or event makes the whole day, AS WELL as that the FULL, _PROPHETIC_ 'day' of night and day sunset to sunset, makes the whole day.

BOTH "criteria" can ONLY be found and are ONLY MET in the "three days" of "three days and three nights" "on the third day" _OF WHICH_ "Christ ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" - the PASSOVER Scriptures -, "ROSE from the dead".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is impossible to get Him in the grave for three days and three night with a Friday crucifixion even if one manipulates the times that constitute a day and night. No amount of math or manipulation can have a Friday crucifixion and a Resurrection after three days and three nights with a Sunday resurrection. Also scripture never says He rose on Sunday. Most likely He rose at sun down on Saturday the 7th day Sabbath.

GE:

Why on earth do you want to "get Him in the grave" in the earth, "three days and three nights"?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is impossible to get Him in the grave for three days and three night with a Friday crucifixion even if one manipulates the times that constitute a day and night. No amount of math or manipulation can have a Friday crucifixion and a Resurrection after three days and three nights with a Sunday resurrection. Also scripture never says He rose on Sunday. Most likely He rose at sun down on Saturday the 7th day Sabbath.

GE:

It seems to me the imperative for ‘solving the problem’ of the “three days” is that the obvious and indisputable, EASY option must in advance be dismissed as unworkable and in its stead only enigmatic inexplicable fanciful solutions are worth considering.

WHY I won’t know.

Re:
“It is impossible to get Him in the grave for three days and three night with a Friday crucifixion even if one manipulates the times that constitute a day and night.”

Now this is true; nevertheless the ingenious Sundayists find their way around this truth, by exactly the method you mention,
“manipulates the times that constitute a day and night”!

They take halve of one day and stitch it to halve of another day, and voila, one day! But it no longer is any day “according to the Scriptures” the PASSOVER-Scriptures of ‘sunset to sunset'.

Now you yourself make yourself guilty of something akin, here, having said,
“Most likely He rose at sun down on Saturday the 7th day Sabbath.”

“Sun down on Saturday” is perfectly on the night of the First Day of the Bible. You argue a Sunday resurrection, thinking you argue a Sabbath’s resurrection!

Unfortunately you amounted ENOUGH “of math manipulation” a Friday crucifixion despite, to “have … a Sunday resurrection”.