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The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

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Protestant

Well-Known Member
Jesus himself said: "I came to seek and to save that which was LOST.

But, truth be told, all men are lost, yet Christ does not save them all.

Notice Christ does not qualify who are the 'lost.'

Also note, Christ does not add a qualifier to His seeking and saving.

He does not say, "I will try my best to seek and save that which is lost."

Your supporters contend Christ's mission, clearly stated here, is, in reality, practically speaking, a miserable failure.

And yet it concerns none of you one whit.

PS I am still waiting for either you or Tony or anyone on your side to answer my questions from post # 22.

These questions are based on your acknowledged belief system.

1. Based on the fact that God is immutable, did God love those He drowned in the Flood, including women, children, infants, the elderly and disabled?

2. Does our immutable God love those residing in Hell awaiting the Lake of Fire and its accompanying eternal torments?

3. If God is not willing for any man to perish and yet most perish, do you not see how that is an apparent contradiction to His claim that ‘none can stay His hand,’ i.e. none can overrule His sovereign will.

4. Since God foreknows the choices all men make, He obviously knows which men make the wrong choice. That being the case:

a. Why does He not rethink the circumstances, heritage, etc., which cause many to reject Christ, changing whatever needs to be changed, so that they, like their successful counterparts who accept Christ, will also accept Christ? Or is that a challenge too great for our God?

b. Since God sincerely loves all men equally, why not use His foreknowledge to not create those whom He loves yet knows will reject Christ and ultimately be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Would it not be more loving to not create them in the first place? What kind of love tortures for eternity those He loves?

5. Since God predestines salvation for those He foresees will choose Christ, how is it not predestination to Hell for those He foresees will not choose Christ? Do the reprobates have the chance to change their destiny? If so, then would it not prove that God’s foreknowledge is inaccurate and He does not know the future with infallible accuracy?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
What is your fasination with the word forced, monsieur? You guys are the only ones who use it in these debates. People are no more forced into salvation than Jesus forced life back into Lazarus' corpse laying in a tomb. You guys truly believe that God, the One who spoke, “Let there be light,” and light sprung forth, and also He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing,[Job 26:7] and He has to ask if it is okay for Him to save them?
I am merely using a synonym for the same word you use all the time, one that is found in TULIP. Irresistible Grace. If grace is Irresistible it is "forced." If it can't be resisted then it is forced upon a person. Isn't that true? It is just a synonym to put things in its proper perspective. You admit that God has foreordained the elect before the foundation of the earth a specific number of people as the elect. You apparently are one of them. There is nothing you can do about it. You are one of the elect whether you want to be or not. You are "forced" into being a Christian. You cannot "resist" his grace. This is what Calvinism teaches. His grace is "Irresistible." It is a forced salvation. You have no choice simply because you are one of the elect.

That is why I keep asking the question. "How do you know you are one of the elect? How can you be sure?"
And if you have noticed, you aren't the only one I asked. I have asked as many Calvinists in these two threads as I have encountered. How do you know; how can you be sure? I have not got one satisfactory answer yet--not one that could differ from a J.W. or Mormon, or a false teacher, etc.

People do resist the Spirit, monsieur. I did, you did, Rippon did, Iconoclast did, PreachTony did, Rebel did, Protestant did. What caused you stop resisting Him?
Yes they have. According to Stephen many have (Acts 7:51).
And yet it is a foundational block of Calvinism. I didn't stop resisting him.
The Holy Spirit's ministry is given clearly in John 16:8-11. And it doesn't speak of Irresistible Grace. It is not a matter resistance; it is a matter of conviction and acceptance.
This forces/force/forced word needs to go, mon ami. We do not use it, nor do we agree with its usage. People, without the effacacious grace of God working in their lives, will go to hell.
If the word "force" goes then the whole concept of "Irresistible Grace" goes, as well as the doctrine of Reprobation. Deal?
Without the effacacious grace of God in their lives, people will choose hell for their eternal destination.
Efficacious grace is not irresistible. Conviction of sin is resistible. The choice is man's whether or not to receive the gift of God.
Talk to people who God is not dealing with and they will turn down the 'chance' of being saved. I have witnessed to many who seem to go 'pfffft'. They want nothing to do with God. Unless God draws them, they will choose to not be saved all the way to their grave, monsieur.
Some do and some don't. That is the way it was in the Book of Acts; that is the way it was with me. I wasn't forced into salvation. I chose to believe in Christ.
:thumbsup: Now, why did they run from that Light?
Check John 1. Light dispels darkness.
:thumbsup: Why were they attracted to that Light?
Some hearts are attracted to the light. For what reason we cannot tell.
Perhaps God had been preparing them before time, as he did with Cornelius and Lydia. They were not regenerated or saved before Peter or Paul came. Regeneration and salvation happen at the same time.
'World' does not mean everyone w/o exception, monsieur. In 2 Cor. 5:19, Paul wrote that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Now, the world means the earth around, but not everyone of its inhabitants. Did Christ take away the sins of those who died before He came in the flesh? Was God reconciling them through Christ, although they were already dead?
The population of the world at that time was about 100 million. Now it is about seven billion. Quite a difference. It didn't reach one billion until the mid 1800's. In Abraham's time it was only about 8,000 or less. When you consider those numbers yes, the world meant the world. And for the gospel to reach the world was quite attainable in any of those generations.
In the OT people were responsible for the light they had. They were commanded bring a sacrifice "looking for the promise to come." They may not have understood all that the sacrifice meant. But their obedience in bringing that sacrifice was commanded by God to Adam and Eve and obviously carried out throughout generations to Noah, who also knew to bring a sacrifice to the Lord.
Noah disembarked in Gen.9. By chapter 11 they had already rebelled against God and his plans for them. But that is when God called Abraham. Yet the population of the world was not very big.
When the debating gets tough, it is always a general statement, and not an absolute with you. Why did they follow Christ? I guess they chose to? Uhhhh, no. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. Now, I am quite sure you will say He chose the 12 and only for a specific purpose, but He also has a chosen a multitude that no man can number, monsieur.
Scripture taken out of context becomes meaningless. Who was he talking to and why? Then you jump to an unidentifiable group in Revelation? And this is what you want to use to support what we believe to be a suspect doctrine?
Are there more than one type of ungodly, monsieur? Are there any unsaved people who are NOT ungodly?
1Cor.3 teaches us that some Christians are ungodly, but David is not speaking of those. He is speaking of the fool. Again, context is the most important thing here. Stay in the context of the Psalm.

You readily admit to being lost as an RCC. You thought you were saved, but thankfully, God sent someone to show you otherwise. Were you not ungodly then? Were you not not seeking God. How many people do you have in your family not seeking Him? Would you consider them 'Godly' sinners. You hermeneutics are way off, mon ami.
No they are not. There are many scriptures to show that I was a sinner before God. Why would I use the entirety of this psalm?
Are there any 'clean and Godly' lost peoples in the world? The fools here are the lost, monsieur.
Specifically, the ones who opposed David. Keep to the context.
So, are there any 'clean, Godly, workers of iniquity' in the world now? This is what you hermeneutics are expressing to all on this board, monsieur.
Let's not get sidetracked here:
Verse one and four clearly identify the context. The context are those that are fools (ungodly) and "workers of iniquity."

Verse two and three were the verses in question:
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God is looking down from heaven at the fools or ungodly and the workers of iniquity that David was speaking of.
These are the ones that did not understand and seek after God.
These are the ones that had altogether become filthy.

Are there some that seek God?
Hudson Taylor did.
Cornelius did.
Lydia did.
And many others. The statement is a general statement about mankind, not an absolute. There are many general statements that describe mankind.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am merely using a synonym for the same word you use all the time, one that is found in TULIP. Irresistible Grace. If grace is Irresistible it is "forced." If it can't be resisted then it is forced upon a person. Isn't that true? It is just a synonym to put things in its proper perspective. You admit that God has foreordained the elect before the foundation of the earth a specific number of people as the elect. You apparently are one of them. There is nothing you can do about it. You are one of the elect whether you want to be or not. You are "forced" into being a Christian. You cannot "resist" his grace. This is what Calvinism teaches. His grace is "Irresistible." It is a forced salvation. You have no choice simply because you are one of the elect.

You were dead in transgressions and sins, as was I. Dead peoples have dead faith. Dead people are quickened to life and given faith and repentance. No force is necessary.

That is why I keep asking the question. "How do you know you are one of the elect? How can you be sure?"
And if you have noticed, you aren't the only one I asked. I have asked as many Calvinists in these two threads as I have encountered. How do you know; how can you be sure? I have not got one satisfactory answer yet--not one that could differ from a J.W. or Mormon, or a false teacher, etc.

These thinly veiled attacks on our salvation is unwarranted, monsieur.


Yes they have. According to Stephen many have (Acts 7:51).
And yet it is a foundational block of Calvinism. I didn't stop resisting him.
The Holy Spirit's ministry is given clearly in John 16:8-11. And it doesn't speak of Irresistible Grace. It is not a matter resistance; it is a matter of conviction and acceptance.

If the word "force" goes then the whole concept of "Irresistible Grace" goes, as well as the doctrine of Reprobation. Deal?

Efficacious grace is not irresistible. Conviction of sin is resistible. The choice is man's whether or not to receive the gift of God.

Some do and some don't. That is the way it was in the Book of Acts; that is the way it was with me. I wasn't forced into salvation. I chose to believe in Christ.

Check John 1. Light dispels darkness.

Some hearts are attracted to the light. For what reason we cannot tell.
Perhaps God had been preparing them before time, as he did with Cornelius and Lydia. They were not regenerated or saved before Peter or Paul came. Regeneration and salvation happen at the same time.

The population of the world at that time was about 100 million. Now it is about seven billion. Quite a difference. It didn't reach one billion until the mid 1800's. In Abraham's time it was only about 8,000 or less. When you consider those numbers yes, the world meant the world. And for the gospel to reach the world was quite attainable in any of those generations.
In the OT people were responsible for the light they had. They were commanded bring a sacrifice "looking for the promise to come." They may not have understood all that the sacrifice meant. But their obedience in bringing that sacrifice was commanded by God to Adam and Eve and obviously carried out throughout generations to Noah, who also knew to bring a sacrifice to the Lord.
Noah disembarked in Gen.9. By chapter 11 they had already rebelled against God and his plans for them. But that is when God called Abraham. Yet the population of the world was not very big.

Scripture taken out of context becomes meaningless. Who was he talking to and why? Then you jump to an unidentifiable group in Revelation? And this is what you want to use to support what we believe to be a suspect doctrine?

1Cor.3 teaches us that some Christians are ungodly, but David is not speaking of those. He is speaking of the fool. Again, context is the most important thing here. Stay in the context of the Psalm.


No they are not. There are many scriptures to show that I was a sinner before God. Why would I use the entirety of this psalm?

Specifically, the ones who opposed David. Keep to the context.

Let's not get sidetracked here:
Verse one and four clearly identify the context. The context are those that are fools (ungodly) and "workers of iniquity."

Verse two and three were the verses in question:
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

God is looking down from heaven at the fools or ungodly and the workers of iniquity that David was speaking of.
These are the ones that did not understand and seek after God.
These are the ones that had altogether become filthy.

Are there some that seek God?
Hudson Taylor did.
Cornelius did.
Lydia did.
And many others. The statement is a general statement about mankind, not an absolute. There are many general statements that describe mankind.

The rest of this is Pas la peine de mon temps, monsieur.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I don't believe that there is any verse that teaches faith is the gift of God. We have been through this time and time again. No Calvinist has been able to show me one verse, and certainly not Eph.2:8, where "it is" are not in the Greek, and "ye are saved" or "salvation" is the subject of each and every following clause including "the gift of God." Thus salvation is the gift of God, and not faith, which defines the verb of "ye are saved" (by faith).
That is a remarkable exercise in special pleading. By excluding grace from faith, you make faith into a work, and therefore a suitable subject for boasting.


Let's look at it another way.
It would be more accurate to say that you and I were criminals before God and if he sent us there we would justly deserve it.
Having said that, for God to create an entire universe, especially man who he made in his own image, look upon it and call it very good, have the intention that he should bestow his love upon it and that mankind should eventually be with Him for all eternity--then suddenly turn around and cast everyone and everything into a an eternal Lake of Fire as you suggest would make God look like an utter fool and a man who has lost his senses. Even pagans do not worship such gods.
Thus to say that God would "be just" in so doing is not quite accurate. It is an attack on his character.
'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?' (Rom. 9:20-21; Isaiah 29:16).

The verse more accurately says:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
--It does not say "reconciling the elect," but rather "the world."

His mercy is shown in his grace--grace of God in salvation that is sufficient for all men.
Have you read the news recently? Are all men reconciled to God? It would be news to ISIL or Richard Dawkins. When the Bible speaks of 'the world' it rarely means 'all the people in the world. More often, it means all sorts and conditions of men- Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, slave and free.


Your example is wrong, and your definition of death is wrong. Dead simply means "separation."
No. Dead means dead. And spiritually dead means spiritually dead.
Consider Adam: "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam ate of the forbidden tree. He died.
How can a dead man still commune with God? But Adam did. "Dead Adam" carried on an audible conversation with God, as God sought him out. Adam answered back. He had lost his fellowship with God. He was separated from God spiritually. He was dead, spiritually dead. But he was still able to communicate with God. Not until God himself provided a sacrifice for him was Adam restored to full spiritual fellowship with God.
A literal translation of Gen. 2:17 is 'Dying, you shall die.' And so it was. Adam started dying and went on dying until he was dead. That is physical death. As spiritually dead people, the first thing Adam and Eve did was to run and hide from God (3:8). That is what spiritually dead people do unless God intervenes. God took the initiative in everything: He called them (v.9), made atonement for them (v.21) and gave them the promise of salvation (v.15). Every part of their salvation was of God.

Sin separates. Death is separation. When man is dead he is not a corpse. He simply needs to be reconciled back to God. God has given us, as his ambassadors the ministry of reconciliation.
Actually, I think you'll find that when man is dead he is a corpse. We are not told that we're ill in trespasses and sin, not even that we're really, really poorly. Dead is the word God uses and there's a reason for that.

They can hear. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This is the source of faith. This is what the Bible teaches about faith.
They can't hear. "Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to My words' (John 8:43). Until God unstops their ears men cannot hear savingly.

This [Ezek 37] is an OT parable teaching an eschatological event. The misapplication of it is error on your part.
It is not a parable; it is a prophetic vision.

When the gospel is preached man has a choice whether to receive it or refuse it. We see this evidence all through the book of Acts. On the day of Pentecost about 3,000 received it, and 97,000 refused it. There was no irresistible grace involved. Peter gave an invitation. The Holy Spirit convicted of sin. It is interesting to note that those most convicted of sin were those that refused to trust Christ. They "resisted" the Spirit of God, just as they did in Acts 7, "gnashing on their teeth," dragging Stephen out to be stoned.
What did Stephen say? 'You always resist the Holy Spirit!' And men always will unless He comes irresistibly. But when the Spirit comes in power, 'As many as had been appointed for eternal life believed' (Acts 13:48).
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You were dead in transgressions and sins, as was I. Dead peoples have dead faith. Dead people are quickened to life and given faith and repentance. No force is necessary.
Dead simply means that one was separated from God, as Adam was when he was "dead."
Dead people do have faith. Everyone has faith. Jesus said that unless you be like little children you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is evident that even little children have faith.
Dead people are reconciled to God. Dead means separated; spiritually dead people are separated from God and need to be reconciled to God, as Adam needed to be. Thus God provided a sacrifice for him.
2Cor.5:18-21 explains how it is committed unto us to be ambassadors of Christ, and He has also committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. As Ambassadors we are to take the gospel message to the world and others by faith in that gospel will be reconciled to Him.
These thinly veiled attacks on our salvation is unwarranted, monsieur.
They are not attacks at all. Believe me. I purposely ask that question to get at the heart of a Calvinistic problem. Where does assurance of salvation come from in Calvinism? I thought this answer would be self-evident. Apparently it is not.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
That is a remarkable exercise in special pleading. By excluding grace from faith, you make faith into a work, and therefore a suitable subject for boasting.
There are many others that agree with me. Let me quote one for you.
Here is Walvoord:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
These verses explain “the incomparable riches of His grace” (Eph_2:7), expanding the parenthetical statement in Eph_2:5, It is by grace you have been saved, and adding that the means of this salvation is through faith. Hence the basis is grace and the means is faith alone (cf. Rom_3:22, Rom_3:25; Gal_2:16; 1Pe_1:5). Faith is not a “work.” It does not merit salvation; it is only the means by which one accepts God’s free salvation.

Paul elaborated, And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
The neuter touto, as is common, refers to the preceding phrase or clause. (In Eph_1:15 and Eph_3:1 touto, “this,” refers back to the preceding section.) Thus it refers back to the concept of salvation (Eph_2:4-8), whose basis is grace and means is faith. This salvation does not have its source in man (it is “not from yourselves”), but rather, its source is God’s grace for “it is the gift of God.”
Eph_2:9 reinforces this by showing that the means is not by works since its basis is grace (Rom_3:20, Rom_3:28; Rom_4:1-5; Rom_11:6; Gal_2:16; 2Ti_1:9; Tit_3:5), and its means is faith (Rom_4:5). Therefore since no person can bring salvation to himself by his own efforts, no one can boast (cf. Rom_3:27; 1Co_1:29). Their boasting can only be in the Lord (1Co_1:31).
He elaborates what I have already stated. Faith is never a work, and salvation, by faith is never by works.

'But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?' (Rom. 9:20-21; Isaiah 29:16).
Simply quoting a verse or two of Scripture doesn't answer my argument.

Have you read the news recently? Are all men reconciled to God?
Did I say they were? Please quote me.
It would be news to ISIL or Richard Dawkins. When the Bible speaks of 'the world' it rarely means 'all the people in the world. More often, it means all sorts and conditions of men- Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, slave and free.
Your point here is that Satan, and not Christ is the god of this world and presently rules it. The Kingdom of Christ is yet to come, which is His Millennial Kingdom.

However, back to what I really said:
"His grace is sufficient"...for all mankind."
If you don't believe God is sufficient for all mankind then God is insufficient and not omnipotent. If that be the case then God is not god. He is limited like man.
Speaking about God to the pagan Athenians, Paul said:
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
--IOW, God doesn't need anything. He is all-sufficient.

No. Dead means dead. And spiritually dead means spiritually dead.
Some examples:
Physical death:
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When spirit is separated from the body that is death. Death is separation.

The Second Death and Eternal Death:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--The dead here are very much alive. This is the second resurrection. "The dead" are alive and well and standing before God receiving their ultimate sentence--to be cast into the Lake of Fire. There they will receive the most horrible sentence ever: "the second death," eternal death, eternal separation from God for all eternity. They will be very much alive, conscious, but separated from God. Death is separation.

Spiritual death:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--They were separated from God. Now they had been reconciled. They weren't a corpse; they were separated. And if they had continued in their separation, not being reconciled to God they would end up in the Lake of Fire to be eternally separated from God--the Second Death.
A literal translation of Gen. 2:17 is 'Dying, you shall die.' And so it was. Adam started dying and went on dying until he was dead. That is physical death. As spiritually dead people, the first thing Adam and Eve did was to run and hide from God (3:8). That is what spiritually dead people do unless God intervenes. God took the initiative in everything: He called them (v.9), made atonement for them (v.21) and gave them the promise of salvation (v.15). Every part of their salvation was of God.
There you are simply stating the consequence of his "death." He did die; died spiritually--was separated from God. If he didn't there would not have been any need of a sacrifice. Your theology takes away the need of a sacrifice.
"The dying" is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which was set in motion when Adam sinned. Everything began to decay. Death entered into the universe. But that is not what God told Adam. God told him he would die. Thus Adam did die.
Actually, I think you'll find that when man is dead he is a corpse. We are not told that we're ill in trespasses and sin, not even that we're really, really poorly. Dead is the word God uses and there's a reason for that.
It is a picture used for emphasis. He is still separated from God. He still needs to be reconciled to God. And God isn't sitting back doing all the work. He gave you the Great Commission, a responsibility to give his great message to others that they might have the opportunity of hearing that same message that you already heard.

They can't hear. "Why do you not understand my speech? Because you are not able to listen to My words' (John 8:43). Until God unstops their ears men cannot hear savingly.
They couldn't hear because they did not want to hear. They would rather carry on in their own unbelief. Those in Acts seven literally put their hands over their ears.
It is not a parable; it is a prophetic vision.
That was my point precisely.

What did Stephen say? 'You always resist the Holy Spirit!' And men always will unless He comes irresistibly. But when the Spirit comes in power, 'As many as had been appointed for eternal life believed' (Acts 13:48).
Of course he said that concerning those who he was speaking to--the Sanhedrin, the ones who crucified Christ, and their ancestors, the ones that had killed the prophets. He was very specific about who he was referring to. He wasn't referring to everyone. Context is important.
To take one verse and make it as an absolute is something Calvinists here must deal with.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The word necros means.....a corpse......not separated ....but a corpse.
This has been explained a dozen times......CORPSE.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The word necros means.....a corpse......not separated ....but a corpse.
This has been explained a dozen times......CORPSE.
Yes, and that is not lost on anyone. It was used for emphasis.
In the Bible death means separation, as is shown by context.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dead simply means that one was separated from God, as Adam was when he was "dead."

Adam died spiritually the very second he ate, mon ami. Then God exiled him from the Garden.

Dead people do have faith. Everyone has faith.

Until you learn there are different faiths...

Jesus said that unless you be like little children you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is evident that even little children have faith.

So all we havve to do is keep people like little children? Keep them dumb and they will go to heaven.

Dead people are reconciled to God.

By quickening by the Spirit.

Dead means separated; spiritually dead people are separated from God and need to be reconciled to God, as Adam needed to be.

Nekros, monsieur, nekros.

Thus God provided a sacrifice for him.

Yes He did.

2Cor.5:18-21 explains how it is committed unto us to be ambassadors of Christ, and He has also committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. As Ambassadors we are to take the gospel message to the world and others by faith in that gospel will be reconciled to Him.

Us, yes.

They are not attacks at all. Believe me. I purposely ask that question to get at the heart of a Calvinistic problem. Where does assurance of salvation come from in Calvinism? I thought this answer would be self-evident. Apparently it is not.

You have no more assurance than I do, monsieur. What makes you think you chose wisely? Mormons, SDA's, Muslims, Jews, all believe they are worshipping God, too.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But, truth be told, all men are lost, yet Christ does not save them all.

Notice Christ does not qualify who are the 'lost.'

Also note, Christ does not add a qualifier to His seeking and saving.

He does not say, "I will try my best to seek and save that which is lost."

Your supporters contend Christ's mission, clearly stated here, is, in reality, practically speaking, a miserable failure.

And yet it concerns none of you one whit.

PS I am still waiting for either you or Tony or anyone on your side to answer my questions from post # 22.

These questions are based on your acknowledged belief system.

1. Based on the fact that God is immutable, did God love those He drowned in the Flood, including women, children, infants, the elderly and disabled?

2. Does our immutable God love those residing in Hell awaiting the Lake of Fire and its accompanying eternal torments?

3. If God is not willing for any man to perish and yet most perish, do you not see how that is an apparent contradiction to His claim that ‘none can stay His hand,’ i.e. none can overrule His sovereign will.

4. Since God foreknows the choices all men make, He obviously knows which men make the wrong choice. That being the case:

a. Why does He not rethink the circumstances, heritage, etc., which cause many to reject Christ, changing whatever needs to be changed, so that they, like their successful counterparts who accept Christ, will also accept Christ? Or is that a challenge too great for our God?

b. Since God sincerely loves all men equally, why not use His foreknowledge to not create those whom He loves yet knows will reject Christ and ultimately be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Would it not be more loving to not create them in the first place? What kind of love tortures for eternity those He loves?

5. Since God predestines salvation for those He foresees will choose Christ, how is it not predestination to Hell for those He foresees will not choose Christ? Do the reprobates have the chance to change their destiny? If so, then would it not prove that God’s foreknowledge is inaccurate and He does not know the future with infallible accuracy?
:applause::thumbs::applause::applause:...case closed. ...
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Adam died spiritually the very second he ate, mon ami. Then God exiled him from the Garden.
There is much more to that story.
In Gen.3:6 they eat of the fruit, rebel against God, sin (and die).
In vs. 8--the hear the voice of God as he walks in the garden.
In vs. 9--God calls to Adam: "Where art thou?"
In vs. 10--Adam answers, I hid myself for I was naked and ashamed.
In vs. 11--God asks: Who said you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree...
And so the conversation between "dead" Adam and God continues though you say Adam is a corpse. This is the teaching of Calvinism. Death is a corpse. Adam is a talking corpse. The theology here is ridiculous.

However, when we come to verse 21, we are still in the Garden of Eden, but shortly after the curse has been pronounced. And the account says:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
--Here is the sacrificed provided by God himself; Adam and Eve, through a blood sacrifice reconciled back to God. Those that were dead (separated) are now alive in Christ, or back in fellowship/alive in Christ.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
--Now at the end of the chapter, after redemption takes place, they are driven from the Garden.
You have oversimplified the story and thus gave the wrong conclusion.

Until you learn there are different faiths...
Everyone has faith in spite of what faith they believe. Man, religious or not, has faith. Even children do. It is the object of one's faith that is important, religious or non-religious.

So all we havve to do is keep people like little children? Keep them dumb and they will go to heaven.
A child's faith is simple, unconfused. They immediately trust their parents 100% for their every need instead of a stranger. The object of their faith or confidence is their parents and it is an unquestioning faith.
By quickening by the Spirit.
By Jesus Christ. 2Cor.5:18-21.
Nekros, monsieur, nekros.
Yes, Adam was nekros, but still managed to talk to God. It is something you have a hard time explaining. Your Greek fails you here. In the Bible "death" means "separation."
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
God spoke to Satan, too.

He also spoke to Balaam's ass.
But he wasn't trying to bring the ass or the serpent back into a right relationship with Him.
The reason for the back and forth conversation with Adam was to woo Adam back into a proper relationship with Him. Adam was His child, his special creation. God was not going to sacrifice for the ass or for the serpent. But He did sacrifice (Gen.3:21) for Adam and Eve.
 

Rebel

Active Member
Dead simply means that one was separated from God, as Adam was when he was "dead."
Dead people do have faith. Everyone has faith. Jesus said that unless you be like little children you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is evident that even little children have faith.
Dead people are reconciled to God. Dead means separated; spiritually dead people are separated from God and need to be reconciled to God, as Adam needed to be. Thus God provided a sacrifice for him.
2Cor.5:18-21 explains how it is committed unto us to be ambassadors of Christ, and He has also committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. As Ambassadors we are to take the gospel message to the world and others by faith in that gospel will be reconciled to Him.

They are not attacks at all. Believe me. I purposely ask that question to get at the heart of a Calvinistic problem. Where does assurance of salvation come from in Calvinism? I thought this answer would be self-evident. Apparently it is not.

It comes from being a Calvinist. :)
 

Protestant

Well-Known Member
:applause::thumbs::applause::applause:...case closed. ...

I still patiently await answers to my questions.

These are not questions which require a theology degree or expert knowledge of Greek and Hebrew.

Rather they are legitimate questions which arise from the good use of common sense.

Is there not one committed soul among our adversaries who is willing to come forth to actually take a stand defending their position?

Our side has biblical answers to all those questions.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I still patiently await answers to my questions.

These are not questions which require a theology degree or expert knowledge of Greek and Hebrew.

Rather they are legitimate questions which arise from the good use of common sense.

Is there not one committed soul among our adversaries who is willing to come forth to actually take a stand defending their position?

Our side has biblical answers to all those questions.
That post is so far back I don't know where to find it. Which post is it?
Sorry I missed it the first time. It is hard to answer everyone at the same time.
 
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