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Featured THE FAITH OF GODS ELECT .

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Nov 25, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    That's a faulty comparison. We know its possible for Jesus and the Holy Spirit to mean what they say . And we know its possible for them to do what they say in John 12.32 and :
    John 16:8

    “And when he is come, he will reprove the WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”

    John 1:9
    King James Version

    9 That was the true Light, which lighteth everyman that cometh into the world.
     
    #121 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How is it a faulty comparison? Just saying that it is faulty doesn't make it so.

    And John 1:9 doesn't have anything bearing on our discussion topic.
     
    #122 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The fault is in the difference between a commentator and God . When something is impossible and possible. I believe God CAN do those things and i believe the bible SAYS that's what he does . When we hear a commentator say stuff we understand the point . Possible v impossible. A 'saying' v truth .
     
    #123 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Now you are the one making faulty conclusions. The point is world does not mean every individual person every single time. Context determines meaning.
     
    #124 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
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  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

    How difficult would it have been to have put " 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all kinds of men unto me "

    or " 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all kindred, tribes and tongues "

    or 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all types and varieties of folks unto me ..

    or 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all the frozen chosen unto me "

    ?
     
    #125 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Because anyone can understand context. You are willfully ignoring the context and cultural context. They would have understood what all men in that culture meant considering what had just happened.
     
    #126 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Must define all and world as used in the NT scriptures!
     
    #127 Yeshua1, Dec 7, 2020
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and they are used in different ways in different passages.
     
    #128 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as context is all important.
     
    #129 Yeshua1, Dec 7, 2020
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    All men is what Jn 12: 32 says. If all men are drawn then all men can be saved. This and many other verses support the fact that all men can be saved..
    MB
     
    #130 MB, Dec 7, 2020
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  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Esau, Judas, Pharaoh, could they have been saved? Were they chosen to be saved, or were they a vessel of destruction as Paul writes about?
     
    #131 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    What do they have to do with John 12.32 ?
     
    #132 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You said all men can be saved and you based it on that verse so you tell me.
     
    #133 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    That's what Jesus is saying . Could you be saved without the cross?
     
    #134 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And I have argued that is NOT what Jesus was saying. So again, answer my question instead of dodging the issue. What about Pharaoh, Esau, Judas?
     
    #135 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Any body thats not ideological possessed
    Should read what John 12.32 says and actually think , " oh Jesus really is saying After his death , burial and resurrection he will draw all men to him " . We can talk about how salvation was appropriated in the old testament if you want but were discussing Jesus s clear statement here after the cross . Yes its always by faith but the appropriation is different at different times . Noah by faith had to build a really , really large boat for example . I believe the folks in question hardened their hearts first , before God judicially hardened pharaoh for example . Calvinism uses the unclear to interpret the clear .
     
    #136 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
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  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You still haven't answered the question. More dodging. This is always how it goes....

    Could Pharaoh, Esau, and Judas been saved? Or were they destined for destruction as Paul writes that some people are?
     
    #137 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
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  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you have read Romans 9 without reformed lenses on . Therefore you cannot read it properly until you remove them. Calvinism is really bad bible study .

    Romans 9–11, God does not “hate” all unbelievers forever, just unbelieving Jews who are like Esau and who, only if they remain like him, will not be counted as sons. In Rom 11:28, these same “hated” unbelieving Jews are also “beloved” for the sake of their forefathers, who have been promised a massive Jew and Gentile family. God is not hardening all unbelievers, just unbelieving Jews. In 11:25, God’s hardening of these unbelieving Jews is “partial,” and he will not harden them forever, only until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. The vessels of wrath in 9:22 are not all unbelievers but unbelieving Jews in distinction to vessels of mercy who are both Jews and Gentiles. In 11:31, these disobedient Jews, because of mercy shown to the Gentiles, will also be shown mercy. If, in Rom 11:11–32, the unbelieving Jews of Romans 9 are stumbling so as not to fall; if their failure will become full inclusion; if their rejection will become acceptance; if the leftover lump will be made holy, if broken branches will be grafted back in, then Romans 9 cannot support a doctrine of reprobation.
     
    #138 Barry Johnson, Dec 7, 2020
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I believe that anyone can have Salvation if they only believe. This is why preaching the gospel is so important. We do not know who will believe.
    You base your philosophy on these verses.
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Then you over look the fact that what Paul is saying is a supposed scenario. Because Paul starts out with "What If" This does not mean there are any vessels fitted to destruction. There fore you miss the subject altogether. In my opinion the vessels of wrath are the vessels of mercy because God went through longsuffering for them and they became the vessels of mercy.
    MB
     
    #139 MB, Dec 7, 2020
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Calvinists also believe that. But they need to have ears to hear. Not everyone does.
     
    #140 Reformed1689, Dec 7, 2020
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