THE FAITH OF GODS ELECT .

[Dave G]

Brothers...
The reason that I am appealing to you three, is because of your passion on this subject and the fact that, for the most part, the 4 of us are the main ones ( not to discount Steve's and Scott's involvement ) posting in this thread in favor of what is commonly called, "Calvinism".

Please be advised that I've been equally at fault in every area that I'm appealing to you in, and I see myself as having been at least as equally passionate...
but over the short time I've been here, I've slowly ( 'cause I'm thick-headed ) come to realize that those who oppose election, predestination, calling and so forth as being the deteminer of who is saved, do so, not because they actually see it as we see it, but because they honestly do not.

Therefore, continuing to get frustrated or angry and making uncharitable comments towards those who see it differently, doesn't serve any purpose other than to cause friction.
In other words, what I see happening in threads like this when the "back and forth" gets going, is not what God wants to happen.
This isn't edification or correction done in love...it's a war of words, which no believer should get caught up in;
But unfortunately we often find ourselves doing it anyway.

I know what causes it, and it's something that only God can fix.
That being said...

Again, I'm just as guilty as anyone for crossing over that line, but by God's grace I don't want to do it anymore.
Which is why I ask this:
Can we all agree to state our positions and why, without attacking anyone personally and tossing insults around?

I do hope so.


May God bless all of us with wisdom and patience as we discuss these things,
and may He be pleased to reveal many things to us by His Spirit and by His word.

 

[Barry Johnson]

It's called context Barry. The Context is that he is talking about both Jews and Gentiles (all types of people) and not just Jews.

Which verse please ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually this is how the verse reads: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me qdraws him. And rI will raise him up on the last day.

No man Can means they are not able. It doesn't say they may not come to him, it says they can't come to him.

Anyone listening to Kevin Thompson is not interested in truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Dave G,

Tony,
Did it occur to you that Barry is not trying to avoid the truth?
That he simply does not understand it the same way?

Hello Dave,
I see it differently than you do. The first three posts reveal an agenda from what I can see. It is not simply a different understanding, quoting from Kevin Thompson is a dead give away. For weeks now a pattern has emerged, with a few posters saying everything and anything just to oppose truth without engaging the offered texts. If you re-read the thread the "insults" came from those you are sort of defending, but you are welcome to your view.

 

[Reformed1689]

Which verse please ?

Read the whole chapter. It's not about "which verse" it's about the context of the whole chapter.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Read the whole chapter. It's not about "which verse" it's about the context of the whole chapter.

For example? This would be a first. As of yet I've never had a calvinist offer context to any verse .

 

[Barry Johnson]

"Dave G,



Hello Dave,
I see it differently than you do. The first three posts reveal an agenda from what I can see. It is not simply a different understanding, quoting from Kevin Thompson is a dead give away. For weeks now a pattern has emerged, with a few posters saying everything and anything just to oppose truth without engaging the offered texts. If you re-read the thread the "insults" came from those you are sort of defending, but you are welcome to your view.

Your assuming Calvinism is the truth .

 

[Iconoclast]

Your assuming Calvinism is the truth .

it is the truth,yes

 

[AustinC]

For example? This would be a first. As of yet I've never had a calvinist offer context to any verse .

You speak falsely, Barry. Multiple people, whom you label calvinists, have provided context for a verse. I mostly provide passages and highlight the verse within the passage. So, when you make the statement above, you are deliberately speaking a falsehood of which you should be convicted in your heart.

Barry, please be honest about yourself and your attitude. You are not being truthful.

 

[Dave G]

Hello Dave,
I see it differently than you do. The first three posts reveal an agenda from what I can see. It is not simply a different understanding, quoting from Kevin Thompson is a dead give away. For weeks now a pattern has emerged, with a few posters saying everything and anything just to oppose truth without engaging the offered texts. If you re-read the thread the "insults" came from those you are sort of defending, but you are welcome to your view.

I'm sorry that you see it differently than I do when it comes to certain things.
We can speak by PM on those, if you desire.

But I see insults on this forum sometimes coming from both directions, especially on this subject of how and why God saves someone ( "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" )...
and I'm reminded by the Lord in His word that we as believers are not to conduct ourselves in such a manner.

For example:

To me, the Bible is very clear on our conduct towards both them that are within the body of Christ and towards them that are without ( outside ) it.
I will give references if you wish, but for now...
Given our position as sinners saved by grace, none of us has any business insulting anyone, railing against anyone, or tearing anyone apart either in print or anywhere else.
I agree that the truth is the truth and that there are many, especially nowadays, that oppose it.

But I also see this in God's word:

" Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
25 in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." ( 2 Timothy 2:22-26 ).

I disagree with Kevin Thompson probably as much as you do ( if not more )...
But giving one's self to insults, defaming someone, or otherwise speaking evil of men is no the way to address the issue.

This is my last reply in this thread.


May God bless you with safe travels and with much wisdom, Tony.
For we stand on nothing but His grace and mercy, and I think that it would do very well for all of us to remember that.

 

[AustinC]

I'm sorry that you see it differently than I do when it comes to certain things.

Dave, please read your words and recognize your pride. You are sorry that people are not like you are.

We all tend to hold the same view as you have stated. We are sorry for people who don't see it our way and thus we tell ourselves how humble we are in our piety.

There is truth and there is untruth. We stand before God regarding how we respond to that which we see as untruth.
Here is an example of how two people act and respond in disagreement:

2 Samuel 16:5-13
When King David came to Bahurim, there came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera, and as he came he cursed continually. And he threw stones at David and at all the servants of King David, and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. And Shimei said as he cursed, “Get out, get out, you man of blood, you worthless man! The Lord has avenged on you all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose place you have reigned, and the Lord has given the kingdom into the hand of your son Absalom. See, your evil is on you, for you are a man of blood.” Then Abishai the son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Let me go over and take off his head.” But the king said, “What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the Lord has said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who then shall say, ‘Why have you done so?’” And David said to Abishai and to all his servants, “Behold, my own son seeks my life; how much more now may this Benjaminite! Leave him alone, and let him curse, for the Lord has told him to. It may be that the Lord will look on the wrong done to me, and that the Lord will repay me with good for his cursing today.” So David and his men went on the road, while Shimei went along on the hillside opposite him and cursed as he went and threw stones at him and flung dust.

 

[Reformed1689]

For example? This would be a first. As of yet I've never had a calvinist offer context to any verse .

Perhaps we define context differently. But if you look at John Chapter 12 we see a break after the Triumphal Entry to then some Greeks coming to seek after Jesus. This is important because it is just before Jesus explains about the Son of Man being lifted up. This was a Jewish festival and those who saw Jesus as Messiah at that time viewed Him as the Jewish Messiah. Not the Messiah for the Gentiles. The cultural context is significant. Therefore, in verse 33 when he is talking about all people he is referring to both Jew and Gentile, not just exclusively for the Jews.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You speak falsely, Barry. Multiple people, whom you label calvinists, have provided context for a verse. I mostly provide passages and highlight the verse within the passage. So, when you make the statement above, you are deliberately speaking a falsehood of which you should be convicted in your heart.

Barry, please be honest about yourself and your attitude. You are not being truthful.

Not once have I seen a calvinist on here speak about a verse in its context. I'm meaning the authors intent, not just the isolated verse ,but the whole chapter and book / letter . All we hear is " This single verse teaches God's sovereign will " , " This text teaches the depravity of man " ect

 

[Barry Johnson]

You speak falsely, Barry. Multiple people, whom you label calvinists, have provided context for a verse. I mostly provide passages and highlight the verse within the passage. So, when you make the statement above, you are deliberately speaking a falsehood of which you should be convicted in your heart.

Barry, please be honest about yourself and your attitude. You are not being truthful.

I realise within your own echo chamber and calvinist buddies you probably think your bible studies are awesome. I've been around calvinist bible studies. There terrible, there's no understanding of the actual letter ,just Doctrines assumed about individual verses . Terrible .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Perhaps we define context differently. But if you look at John Chapter 12 we see a break after the Triumphal Entry to then some Greeks coming to seek after Jesus. This is important because it is just before Jesus explains about the Son of Man being lifted up. This was a Jewish festival and those who saw Jesus as Messiah at that time viewed Him as the Jewish Messiah. Not the Messiah for the Gentiles. The cultural context is significant. Therefore, in verse 33 when he is talking about all people he is referring to both Jew and Gentile, not just exclusively for the Jews.

We see proselytes and Jews . Thats it . Thats Jesus main ministry . He only sent the diciples to Jews . Jesus only came for Jews / Israel . Yes Jesus is pointing to All in John 12.32 because the gospel will eventually reach all after Paul's conversion . Peter realises this in Acts 11 . We have to go with what Jesus says and not what you assume. If Jesus says ALL MEN he means ALL MEN in John 12.32 . He was capable of informing his audience about this 24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So Hes more than capable to say when he's lifted up ,will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM .

 

[AustinC]

Not once have I seen a calvinist on here speak about a verse in its context. I'm meaning the authors intent, not just the isolated verse ,but the whole chapter and book / letter . All we hear is " This single verse teaches God's sovereign will " , " This text teaches the depravity of man " ect

Again with your falsehood. Over and over again, context is provided, yet you reject it. The author's intent is given to you and you reject it. Stop blaming others for your obstinance.

 

[Reformed1689]

Not once have I seen a calvinist on here speak about a verse in its context. I'm meaning the authors intent, not just the isolated verse ,but the whole chapter and book / letter . All we hear is " This single verse teaches God's sovereign will " , " This text teaches the depravity of man " ect

This is a flat out lie.

 

[Reformed1689]

We see proselytes and Jews . Thats it . Thats Jesus main ministry . He only sent the diciples to Jews . Jesus only came for Jews / Israel . Yes Jesus is pointing to All in John 12.32 because the gospel will eventually reach all after Paul's conversion . Peter realises this in Acts 11 . We have to go with what Jesus says and not what you assume. If Jesus says ALL MEN he means ALL MEN in John 12.32 . He was capable of informing his audience about this 24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So Hes more than capable to say when he's lifted up ,will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM .

Jesus did not only come for Jews, nor did He send his disciples to only Jews.

 

[Reformed1689]

We have to go with what Jesus says and not what you assume. If Jesus says ALL MEN he means ALL MEN in John 12.32 .

I am going with what Jesus said, you are twisting it and ignoring context.

 

[Reformed1689]

We see proselytes and Jews . Thats it . Thats Jesus main ministry . He only sent the diciples to Jews . Jesus only came for Jews / Israel . Yes Jesus is pointing to All in John 12.32 because the gospel will eventually reach all after Paul's conversion . Peter realises this in Acts 11 . We have to go with what Jesus says and not what you assume. If Jesus says ALL MEN he means ALL MEN in John 12.32 . He was capable of informing his audience about this 24¶But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So Hes more than capable to say when he's lifted up ,will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO HIM .

Think about this Barry. If a commentator for the World Series says all eyes are on this moment, does that literally mean every person in the world is watching the World Series?