THE FAITH OF GODS ELECT .

[AustinC]

So you are going to have to give a verse that invalidates what Jesus said or you are in serious error.

Dust off your sandals...

 

[Barry Johnson]

So you are going to have to give a verse that invalidates what Jesus said or you are in serious error.

Did Jesus say " 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day...and this will be the case at all times even after I'm lifted up " ? Didn't Jesus say a change would happen in John 12 .32 ?
Do you see every verse the same at all times ? There's things said to Noah , Abraham , Moses ect do you also apply those for all times in the same way also ? Is the Father's words less than Jesus, s? Or should we sensibly recognise God deals with people differently at different times. You are not offering up sacrifices are you? No , because you hopefully recognise a change has happened . Well John 12 .32 is a change . After the cross there are many changes..Cults , calvinist ,s , Catholics ect miss these changes and have their favourite verses regardless of where they are placed in the bible .Because they bring a system of teaching to the bible that the bible has to submit to .

 

[Reformed1689]

Did Jesus say " 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day...and this will be the case at all times even after I'm lifted up " ? Didn't Jesus say a change would happen in John 12 .32 ?
Do you see every verse the same at all times ? There's things said to Noah , Abraham , Moses ect do you also apply those for all times in the same way also ? Is the Father's words less than Jesus, s? Or should we sensibly recognise God deals with people differently at different times. You are not offering up sacrifices are you? No , because you hopefully recognise a change has happened . Well John 12 .32 is a change . After the cross there are many changes..Cults , calvinist ,s , Catholics ect miss these changes and have their favourite verses regardless of where they are placed in the bible .Because they bring a system of teaching to the bible that the bible has to submit to .

Jesus being lifted up has no bearing on what he said in John 6:44. Jesus, in John 12:32 is talking about all TYPES of people, both Jew and Gentile. You have to read context and not cherry pick verses Barry. John 12:32 is not the change you are trying to make.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Jesus being lifted up has no bearing on what he said in John 6:44. Jesus, in John 12:32 is talking about all TYPES of people, both Jew and Gentile. You have to read context and not cherry pick verses Barry. John 12:32 is not the change you are trying to make.

You don't see a change with THE major event in the entire history of the cosmos? lol .

 

[Barry Johnson]

So you are going to have to give a verse that invalidates what Jesus said or you are in serious error.

No you need to give a verse which says the Father draws after the cross. Especially in light of John 12.32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all kinds of men unto me.? No
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

 

[Reformed1689]

You don't see a change with THE major event in the entire history of the cosmos? lol .

I said it isn't the change YOU are trying to claim. I never said nothing changed after the cross.

 

[Reformed1689]

No you need to give a verse which says the Father draws after the cross. Especially in light of John 12.32
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all kinds of men unto me.? No
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me.

I've already showed you John 12:32 has nothing to do with our discussion.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I've already showed you John 12:32 has nothing to do with our discussion.

Of course it has . John 12.32 is After John 6 . It shows that they CAN come in John 6.44 . They CAN come. its the same in John 12.32 .THEY CAN come. ALL are drawn by Jesus. ' attracted ' but not ALL will necessarily believe.

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course it has . John 12.32 is After John 6 . It shows that they CAN come in John 6.44 . They CAN come. its the same in John 12.32 .THEY CAN come. ALL are drawn by Jesus. ' attracted ' but not ALL will necessarily believe.

Except that isn't what that says at all. You are taking things out of context and twisting meaning.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I've already showed you John 12:32 has nothing to do with our discussion.

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Notice what sin it is that the Holy Spirit reprove s the WORLD of ? A

 

[Barry Johnson]

Except that isn't what that says at all. You are taking things out of context and twisting meaning.

Why does it say CAN then please in John 6.44 ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Except that isn't what that says at all. You are taking things out of context and twisting meaning.

Calvinsm ignores the word CAN .. Its read like this ...
44No man comes to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is how its read and assumed But look again

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

See how different that is ?

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinsm ignores the word CAN .. Its read like this ...
44No man comes to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is how its read and assumed But look again

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

See how different that is ?

Actually this is how the verse reads: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me qdraws him. And rI will raise him up on the last day.

No man Can means they are not able. It doesn't say they may not come to him, it says they can't come to him.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Actually this is how the verse reads: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me qdraws him. And rI will raise him up on the last day.

No can come to the party unless the one who's birthday it is invites me ...

 

[Barry Johnson]

Jesus being lifted up has no bearing on what he said in John 6:44. Jesus, in John 12:32 is talking about all TYPES of people, both Jew and Gentile. You have to read context and not cherry pick verses Barry. John 12:32 is not the change you are trying to make.

Where does it say " all types of people " ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus being lifted up has no bearing on what he said in John 6:44. Jesus, in John 12:32 is talking about all TYPES of people, both Jew and Gentile. You have to read context and not cherry pick verses Barry. John 12:32 is not the change you are trying to make.

Of course, this is correct unless a person wanted to try and negate truth by eisegeting verses to attempt to avoid truth.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Of course, this is correct unless a person wanted to try and negate truth by eisegeting verses to attempt to avoid truth.

Leviticus 16:7

“And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.”

Here's a truth. Is this still happening ?
Mat 10 .5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

And here ? It's all over the bible . Truth after truth.

 

[Reformed1689]

Leviticus 16:7

“And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.”

Here's a truth. Is this still happening ?
Mat 10 .5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

And here ? It's all over the bible . Truth after truth.

grasping for straws Barry and making yourself look foolish.

 

[Reformed1689]

Where does it say " all types of people " ?

It's called context Barry. The Context is that he is talking about both Jews and Gentiles (all types of people) and not just Jews.

 

[Dave G]

Gentlemen,
As in my last post, I feel the need to address something that I see happening ( and perhaps it's something that I'm getting more sensitive to, the older that I get ) in threads like this, that really should not be happening...
Given that we all profess Christ and by extension, should be professing godliness as well:

I'm wondering if anyone who passionately looks into these things can correct one another in love and with the Scriptures, instead of resorting to other methods that are not according to His word.



David,
Has it occurred to you that Barry honestly sees what he sees when he reads the Bible for himself, and that he's not trying to make himself look foolish or to avoid context?

Tony,
Did it occur to you that Barry is not trying to avoid the truth?
That he simply does not understand it the same way?

Austin,
Same thing as all the above.


Continued below.