The flimsy foundation of ME

Be careful, npetreley -- with the brush you are using on ME, you ought to also paint Calvinism!

skypair

 

I do not believe this man to be saved. Yes he is a servant, so was Judas, so was Nebakanezer, etc. they were not saved. Christ even said that Judas that delivered him up had the GREATER sin. Judas will not be at the JSOS. A portion with the unbelievers is the same as a part. Look at Rev. 21:8. there are no saints there. And Christ never defined his sheep as unbelievers as the ungodly & so fit for hell.

 

I wanted to show you this last night but it was late.

I't seems that ME rests its position on paul's picture of a runner winning a race.

1Co 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

However this prize is a crown the winner will be given. It has nothing to do with the looser spending 1000 years in outer darkness.

Barnes Commentary puts it like this:

Paul illustrates the general sentiment on which he had been dwelling-- the duty of practicing self-denial for the salvation of others--by a reference to the well-known games which were celebrated near Corinth. Throughout the chapter, his object had been to show that in declining to receive a support for preaching, he had done it, not because he was conscious that he had no claim to it, but because by doing it he could better advance the salvation of men, the furtherance of the gospel, and, in his peculiar case, (#1Co 9:16,17,) could obtain better evidence, and furnish to others better evidence that he was actuated by a sincere desire to honour God in the Gospel. He had denied himself. He had voluntarily submitted to great privations. He had had a great object in view in doing it. And he now says, that in the well-known athletic games at Corinth, the same thing was done by the racers, (#1Co 9:24,) and by wrestlers, or boxers, #1Co 9:25. If they had done it, for objects so comparatively unimportant as the attainment of an earthly garland, assuredly it was proper for him to do it to obtain a crown which should never fade away.

 

If I thought I had to use for an example, those who do not believe in the truth of God's free grace to prop my point, I would get a clue.

 

That's dishonest, JJ. Like I tell the Calvinists, Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

You know Calvinists also have an "issue" with works. They just don't go to the extreme of saying that a believer can go to hell without works. They're take is that he/she just lacks salvation or lacks assurance.

skypair

 

Please show me this scripture.

Blessings and it's time for Church so I'll be back this afternoon.

 

Yes, John is saved, but John committed a "sin unto death." Fini' -- end of story. John can't be punished in the flesh anymore. Not in earthly flesh and not in glorified flesh.

John goes to the JSOC in heaven and his SPIRIT is "tested SO AS BY fire" and John comes through saved and with a perfect "mind of Christ" purged of it's old thoughts and errors (like, even his belief in ME got cleansed!).

You know -- it's kind of a ghastly thing for you ME-ers to send the "bride" of Christ to hell on her wedding night!!

skypair

 

His answer being honest is your opinion, and not necessarily fact. As a matter of fact, since the Word of God teaches that all who come to Christ will not be ashamed, his answer and your opinion of his answer mean nothing in light of God's Holy Word.

 

I like a lot of what you said to Lazarus but here's the problem -- to you, the person who is saved with no works isn't saved from anything! He/she already has eternal life or existence -- though it be in hell without a body. And he or she is not, according to you, saved from hell, the very place that the lost, Satan, and his devils go. So what really are those who "believe" saved from?

No, but you are making one yourself.

Good point for Calvinists to note.

You have the same one with a few nuances, JJ. IN SPADES, in fact! You not only justify the "Calvinist 'Lordship' gospel," you justify the Catholics as well!!

skypair

and see if it stands up to the test of Scripture and I think you might be surprised at how much has to fall by the way side. Trust me it's a tough thing to do, but it is well worth it![/QUOTE]

 

There is another church tradition fallacy, thinking that the entire church will make up the bride of Christ. This is simply not supported in Scripture in the OT or NT.

 

So what happens to those people who allow someone to take their crown away or simply lose their crown on their own?

 

Lacy --- these are "discernment" passages. They are for discerning who are believers and who are not.

And as you probably notice, some of them cut "close to the bone" -- envying, strife, heresy, foolish talk, jesting. Are you ready to put down the stone yet, "Mr/Ms Pharisee?" What they are talking about is CONTINUOUS sinning in these. True believers ought to be "corrected" with such comparisons and repent -- unblelievers won't.

Heresies, for example. When one is shown the spiritual truth but continues in error embracing ever more tightly the "doctrines of men." Where is ths spiritual vision of such a person?? Can he/she not tell the "mustard tree" from the "birds," Mt 13:32 (This may be my favorite illustration because the tree is of Christ but the birds in our brnaches are of the devil.) You know, in the OT Jesus said not to pull up the tares until the end. But to the church, Paul says we need to "ostracize" the sinner -- turn them over to Satan -- from out of the kingdom! That is part of God's chastening and, as I have told you before, this is the "hell" you think believers must experience only after this life.

skypair

 

Amen! Because one is Truth and one is not. I let everyone decide which is which :laugh:.

 

We must discuss this ("eternal covenant," etal.) on another thread, Lazzie. I don't see your "eternal covenant."

skypair

 

The entire church 'will' make up the bride of Christ, however what comprises 'the entire church' is what needs to be defined. See the link I posted on the true church.

Also, I have seen your position on requiring people to go IN to the lake of fire or some other such place for 1000 years, but I have not seen your position on how they get OUT of it. In every case I know of in the Bible the future retribution is always eternal. Just so I can be straight on this could you please explain the requirements for exiting. It can't merely be time limited because God is not limited to time, if He were to send someone there, it would be because they owe him something, and scripture abundantly teaches that we can never pay our own debt.


BGTF

 

BGTF welcome to the discussion. Let's take one thing at a time. Since you brought up this, let's deal with this first. Do you have Scripture from the OT and NT alike that indicates that the entire church will make up the bride?

 

Isa 43:18-21

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing ; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
KJV


John 6:37-40

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Since most of the visible church today is of the lukewarm variety and will be spewed out, please don't forget to read my working definition of the true church posted here.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund60.htm

Now back to you to answer my previous question.



BGTF

 

Tradition be damned, JJ! Read your Bible, will you?!

Mt 25:1-13 shows 10 virgins. Five will be "bride" -- because they have the Spirit/oil. Five, you're right, are still lost though they attend church, etal. That doesn't mean that the "foolish five" go to hell for 1000 years --- it means they go through the 7 year tribulation.

You sure got a lot to learn before you start trying to teach orthodoxy to the rest of us!

skypair